warning: big group at pebble and pistol this weekend

Post by JB » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:28 pm

Sandy... since when does anything related to USFS policy make sense? I agree with you... it doesn't make sense that universities don't need a permit, but that doesn't make me doubt it when someone like bberlier or myself or miami of ohio call the USFS and are told the opposite of what the regulations may seem to state. why try to make sense of it?? You could call yourself to find out rather than to doubt BBerlier and myself. I ain't upset... just confused as to why all of a sudden stuff has to make sense, when you know good and well it never does!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:29 pm

jesus, bberlier, my questions are reasonable. Maybe they have been slack enforcing the laws with University groups? Maybe they cut them a break? Or maybe somehwere in all the legal mumbo jumbo there is an actual statement which excludes them. If not, perhaps the CAC could work that angle with the FS and get them to start applying the regulations as stated to ALL groups.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:30 pm

I already placed a call to the Stanton Ragner district, about an hour ago. I'm waiting on a call back.

Post by **bberlier** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:32 pm

JB, I really applaud you for your education of the groups you take climbing.
Maybe if I worked for a University I would still be guiding, because as a private guide service, you really have so much to keep up with if you want to stay legal.

Post by **bberlier** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:34 pm

Maybe they have been slack enforcing the laws with University groups? Maybe they cut them a break? Or maybe somehwere in all the legal mumbo jumbo there is an actual statement which excludes them.

I forgot that Rita of the FS would know less than you!!!!

Post by **captain static** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:39 pm

If you are interested in the law consult 36 CFR 251 & 261. This law was subject to some revisions last year but I am not sure if the revisions became final. Realize also that there are two types of university programs, outing clubs and outdoor programs. An outing club is all volunteer where as an outdoor program has paid staff.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:40 pm

bberlier wrote:
Maybe they have been slack enforcing the laws with University groups? Maybe they cut them a break? Or maybe somehwere in all the legal mumbo jumbo there is an actual statement which excludes them.
I forgot that Rita of the FS would know less than you!!!!

I'm just asking questions. There is no need for you to be an asshole about it. I see nothing in their regulations that excludes universities or other school groups. That's why I called to ask. Maybe you could use this as a loophole to try to get the NF to enforce their own stated regulations with schools? If it is indeed a loophole. I'm asking because I care. If I knew, I wouldn't ask.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:41 pm

Thank you, Capt. I'm not sure why bbelier has to take honest questions as some kind of assault to his manhood

Post by **the lurkist** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:45 pm

More likely, Sandy, Brian, et al..., is that the FS regs are antiquated and were not designed with large groups with concentrated impacts (like at cliff bases) or should be amended.
Clearly, large groups, be they non profit or for profit, don't pass the sniff test. They all bring with them the impacts that we are trying to guard against. LAC- limits of acceptable change, and with a herd of people at the base of one climb, they blow right past the limit.
The bases need hardening and the trails need hardening.
They should, as the captain stated, do the right thing, and the FS and their regs should be seeing that they do.

This brings up another point. Where has the RRGCC been? I'll defend them when appropriate, but the oft mentioned shortcomings of the RRGCC are evident.
Why hasn't someone approached these groups? We have know and bitched about the "bus" pulling up a global or road side for years.
These groups are well meaning and could be a huge source of good will and donation, as well as JB points out, a sentinel opportunity to educate a whole new generation of users as to the correct out door ethic.
Somebody is asleep at the wheel. Don't use the lame excuse that "we are over worked". Many (I'll name names if pressed) people with valuable time have offered to run out reach programs for the RRGCC, but the central committee of one has refused any overture for assistance, primarily because it would require relaxing the grip on decision making (my opinion).

Post by **bberlier** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:49 pm

That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you! I KNOW! But you won't believe me.
Do you believe JB? It is confusing the way it is stated, but I have firsthand experience. I have sat at the Stanton Ranger District and had them explain everything to me. Universities DON"T fall under those laws.

I gave you multiple chances to believe me before I got testy. If you want to get into name calling, I'm game!