RRC Archives

All I know is I don't want to die because of somebody else's errant ways.

I don't want to die because some fucker needs to smoke while filling his gas tank, I don't want to die because some soccer mom bitch HAS to drive 85mph in her fucking SUV tank, while chatting on her cel phone... in the rain, and I don't want to die because I took a fall on a bolt that some irresponsible person has bounced on like a hyperactive child until it is weakened to failure.

Whether or not the VW is the cause of a bolt failure, it's unnecessary and may weaken the system. If it's a public, shared route then treat it as if your actions might kill someone coming after you because your actions may do just that. If it's your crag, whip all day.

I think I may have the solution to this: Climb above the anchor system and place a whipper bolt for yourself and then whip on it... or build a nice trad anchor system and whip on that. Simple.

If the route has been properly bolted, then it shouldn't matter it the last
bolt blows - the second to last should keep you off the ground.

Knowing something about the route help, too. If the crux is going to the
anchors, then the last bolt has probably taken it's share of falls. If not, then
it probably hasn't taken any more falls than any other bolt. And even if it
has, there is usually so much rope out at that point that the force is less than
what would be placed on a lower bolt.

Does everything need to be kid tested - mother approved these days?

Spragwa wrote:Why was this tired thread reinvigorated? It died six months ago. Let it.

I'm glad this has been revived because the WV spray on the glue-in bolt thread is hijacking an important thread. Let's spew here about 'Victory Whips' and keep the other thread focused on glue-in bolts.

the lurkist wrote:Remember, though, Rick is on a crusade, so get used to it.

While I don't totally agree with Rick on the issue, I think it is inaccurate to say that he is "on a crusade." He far from being a "jihadi" or "crusader" on the issue. He presents reasonable, rational explanations for part of why he thinks that WVs are dumb. Wes is towards the opposite end of the spectrum on the issue and has similarly done a reasonable job explaining his viewpoint.

I think that Rick's perspective is 'intensified' because he is a land owner who has invited people onto his land to climb, and understands the responsibilities that come along with that. Personally, I think that Rick goes a little too far, but I am not going to argue against his positions because, first, he is making a really fun, safER place to climb and, second, he is putting up the time, money and work to make it happen, so who am I to argue? Rick has staked out a firm position on the "safety first" end of the spectrum, but he is far from irrational or a 'crusader'.

I think that I am in the middle on the whole WV thing. It isn't my idea of fun, but I don't see it as quite such a huge problem. I think that Wes has a good point - out here in the real world, there just aren't many (any?) bolt failures that appear to be directly linked to VWs. The fact that a lot of people end routes at the Motherlode by just tagging and dropping seems like a good test case for the fact that the bolts are surviving the added 'abuse'. On the other hand, we all know that there are some 'bad bolts' out there, and that they may look fine on the surface but be failing behind the hanger. Taking WVs undoubtedly puts additional, unnecessary 'abuse' on them, and in those rare circumstances, proably would lead to premature failure of the bolt, hopefully casing the Whipper him/herself to deck, but potentially creating a 'ticking bomb' situation for the next climber.

I think that the 'controversey' on this topic is based on the 'grey area' of intentionality. It all comes down to the 'Whipper's' intent to take an 'unnecessary' and 'exagerated' fall that raises the hackles in a lot of people. Most folks would not call a normal fall 'irresponsible' because it is seen as 'normal' in the course of climbing.

Alan Evil wrote: I don't want to die because some fucker needs to smoke while filling his gas tank, I don't want to die because some soccer mom bitch HAS to drive 85mph in her fucking SUV tank, while chatting on her cel phone... in the rain, and I don't want to die because I took a fall on a bolt that some irresponsible person has bounced on like a hyperactive child until it is weakened to failure.

Maybe you should never leave your house.

Alan Evil wrote: Whether or not the VW is the cause of a bolt failure, it's unnecessary and may weaken the system. If it's a public, shared route then treat it as if your actions might kill someone coming after you because your actions may do just that.

What about all those bolts that people normally fall on? Those may weaken the system. Maybe you shouldn't climb routes with bolts on them if this scares you so much.

so Rhunt, Ho and Tom are standing on the corner in Winslow Az., the light changes to WALK- which starts a endless debate on the true definition of WALK, fourteen months later they are buried.

I'm on a crusade, Wes, so live with it. - Rick, in his own words.

I took a look at the post Rick made citing his resources who disapprove of VW's. I have met Beckey several times and my best friend in college cimbed extensively with him in the NW and several trips to western China. I don't know the other guy by name or reputation, but I know Beckey is not a sport climber, never has been, and I think it is a safe bet that the other guy (Jim?) doesn't clip many bolts either. Of course these guys think taking unnecessary falls are stupid- they are Mountaineers. Falling is antithetical to them- something that is never an option.
For them to be quoted in an aruguement surrounding the culture of sport climbing is laughable and to affix any crediblity to their opinion in this matter is misplaced.
I said it before and say it again. I do not make it a habit to purposely jump from anchors. I think it invites getting dropped. People who do it have a competent belay and do fine. Its all fine. But some kid will do it with an inept belay and will deck. That is my concern.
To make an arguement that the bolts are getting undue wear by falling on them is frankly wrong and unsupported. It really undermines the basic nature of the sport. If Rick isn't comfortable with people falling on his gear, then he got into the wrong business. He should make all routes at MV obligate TR (seriously).

Well said lurkist...well said.

I tend to agree. I have always thought this idea was strange coming from an engineering/statistics point of view. Rick can put in place any rule he wants and I will happily follow all of them. However, there has yet to be any evidence on here which supports a scientific basis for limiting falls on bolts. The weird part is this thread has probably convinced a few people who have never taken a VW to go out and try one to see what it is like. The practice fall issue and the multiple falls working a route have not been addressed either. I took my practice falls at the Arena (since many older climbers told me that's what a developing climber should do) and thought nothing of taking a few clean falls to have a better lead head. I see more problems stemming from new climbers who fall uncontrollably or panic and fall in a weird manner versus the few people who might be taking VW's.

chriss wrote:

Alan Evil wrote: I don't want to die because some fucker needs to smoke while filling his gas tank, I don't want to die because some soccer mom bitch HAS to drive 85mph in her fucking SUV tank, while chatting on her cel phone... in the rain, and I don't want to die because I took a fall on a bolt that some irresponsible person has bounced on like a hyperactive child until it is weakened to failure.

Maybe you should never leave your house.

Alan Evil wrote: Whether or not the VW is the cause of a bolt failure, it's unnecessary and may weaken the system. If it's a public, shared route then treat it as if your actions might kill someone coming after you because your actions may do just that.

What about all those bolts that people normally fall on? Those may weaken the system. Maybe you shouldn't climb routes with bolts on them if this scares you so much.

I didn't say it "scared" me. I said I don't want to die because of some other person's foolish actions. If you smoke a goddamned cigarette while pumping gas and I'm in the same gas station I'm going to beat the shit out of you. I don't feel that strongly about VWs but I've about decided I'd rather climb trad anyway. Too many jock types sport climbing these days.

Just curious, chriss, but have you ever said, "If you don't like America you should leave it!" in the course of a conversation?

Toad wrote:...

Does everything need to be kid tested - mother approved these days?

Only if you don't wish to have your ass sued six ways to Sunday.

Rick