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Clueless tard, someone please do us all a favor and ban his dumbass.

allah wrote:........ The other thing if you are going to get on one of my routes, just fuckin ask me and we can get on it together.

That is the common etiquette. That and keeping your mouth shut when everyone around you calls you out for being a waste of life.

I am catching up with this thread- but here goes-
So, I have been climbing in the Red since 1982 and have been climing the sport routes here since the first one went in (for 20 pts can anyone name it?).
It has never been okay to snake another's project.
Alan Watts was quoted. This brings to mind a special and seminal route in Smith that set a precedent for when a nascent first ascentionist had to give up. Dan Goodwin bolted this route to the right of Churning. He tried it and tried it, and then took a long hiatus from it. The time stretched into a year plus and someone else did it. They named the route "Time's Up". So, this is salient to the Red because at Smith, already at that time most of the good routes had been taken and very little was left to bolt (the early 90's). So, it seems excusable that the good of the community out weighed the self serving of the equipper.
In the Red, however, this is not the case. We have massive reserves of stone that could be bolted, if only lazy fuckers who would take advantage of another's labors would get to work. My point (which I made when another now infamous route stealing shit bag made his bed)- there is plenty of rock out their. BOLT YOUR OWN FUCKING ROUTE! I have and continue to offer my drill and kit to anyone who wants to bolt a route. Is that clear enough?

I'll take a shot at that question, 20 pts. is 20 pts.

Bolt Route - Otto Mock - 1969

caver's route - tower rock

Zspider wrote:Sandy wrote about here experience on a red-tagged line:

darlin, I had an invite from the generous FA.

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Huh? I thought the red tag was waiting for a first ascent. Or was it just the hopeful first ascender? In that case, the rules get more interesting. Nobody is allowed on the route except the hopeful and whoever he allows on it.

ZSpider

oops, I meant to say the bolter invited me on the route while it was still tagged but I am not a good enough climber to have gotten it.

So whatever.

I can't believe anyone would think it's ever okay to snake a route they did not equip, not without permission. Anyone who would may not be a 'thief' in the eyes of the law, but they are just as scummy.

Cliff wrote:

mr. pig-bolting cracks is/was frowned upon for aesthetic (yes, 'style') reasons.

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Yup. Aesthetics and style of ascent were big out in Yosemite in the early days. Bolts were mostly placed for aid climbing blank sections. Which, of course, sometimes turned into a bolt ladder of some length. I remember a story about Royal Robbins, the self-proclaimed leading expert on aesthetics, getting on a Warren Harding route for the sole purpose of chopping all the bolts because it didn't meet his aesthetics standard. They were going to climb it and erase it as they went. They chopped a bunch of bolts and then either decided they liked the route or else got tired of chopping bolts and just climbed the rest. As a footnote, I don't think they went back and replaced the bolts they chopped. If I recall correctly, the route was called the Wall of the Early Morning Light, or the Dawn Wall.

So you can see, pigsteak, how very important the aesthetic is to climbers.

ZSpider

Meadows wrote:

Mr. Used-to-be, the world changes and so do rules to accomodate those changes. You're not above the rules just because you know how it used to be.

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If I've left the impression that I regularly climb red-tagged or advocate climbing them, I've made a mistake. I've never gotten on one and wouldn't, out of simple courtesy and a small amount of apathy. But as far as me gasping in shock at the idea of someone else doing it, that's another thing entirely.

The bottom line here is that I have no problem following those rules, and I do follow them, but I do not have to believe that they have the earth-shaking significance that some others do.

ZSpider

Z spider,
I agree with you that it is good to keep these tempests in a tea pot in perspective.
Gunslinga brought up the two different sub catagories of ethics this thread was originally discussing.
The first and most important is the treatment of our outdoor playground. The littering, aesthetic disrespect (chalk graffiti- although I hesitate to mention this as some would definitely call a route festooned with heavily chalked holds as aesthetic disrespect and this could lead down a totally different road), and in general the seeming loss of an outdoor ethic in a respectful treatment and stewardship of our charge - the cliffline area and the cliff are the most important and meaningful ethics we can subscribe to.
The other, that matters little in the larger scheme is how we conduct ourselves within our community. Showing each other deference and respect is crucial to a communities functioning. If we all decided to suddenly suspend these ethics, then I would contend that it would be a short time before deregard for the more important ethic of our outdoor behaviour started to show signs of wear. Indeed, it seems that these two erode together.
Not getting on someone elses project (that they have taken time and labor to establish, perhaps primarily for their own self aggrandizement, but ultimately for the long term good of the community- and let's not forget that ours is the only sport where the venue for the expression of the sport is created soley through this enlightend self interest volunteerism, i.e the bolting of routes and developement of cliffs) is merely showing respect and humility toward that effort and spirit of volunteerism. To get on one of these routes, while not earth shaking, is a totally selfish, lazy, and shortsighted and undercuts the spirit of community service and volunteerism that is the bedrock of our sport.

sorry, didn't mean to muddy the issue. sandy was on a red tagged route of mine because I knew she like the style. Sandy, Yasmeen, and I were all vying for the FA of a route I bolted, with my permission of course. I would have been stoked for one of theses ladies to send first,and Yasmeen actually came damn close. My wife sent first on TR, I followed with the first lead, so in my mind we both go on the FA. Others have a different take.

But many routes I put up, I only send them on TR, and then offer others to get the first lead. And I tell them that if they get the first lead, then we will put both our names on the FA. In anohter twist, I have been known to include a person in the FA even if they have not sent the route. If the person gave me incredible amounts of energy in a belay, or unlocked a key sequence, then they are part of the FA. Unless you solo, you always have to share credit on the FA.

If I really love a line and want the FA on lead, I will ask others to wait until I have removed the tag.

I am with Hugh...go bolt your own lines, you lazy route skimmers.

I dont blame the lazy ass route stealers, I blame their parents for not raising them to work hard for what they want and not respecting others hard work and doing and for just being fucking bums