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After Rick's incredibly patient replies on the test-bolting results thread...I think victory whipppers
are disrespectful and damaging. Wes' refusal to appreciate the consequences of UNNECESSARY
wear on gear by arguing that people who climb fall ignores the fundamental principle of climbing.
The widely agreed upon arc of climbing history has been away from gear intensive/ assault style
practrices toward low-impact. To ignore that each fall causes some incremental impact on anchor systems and to argue that VW's impact is negligible because 'we would have seen bolts popping left and right...' IS irresponsible. As at the top of AWOL (I think) there is now a small crop of old bolts poking out of the rock. Were these abandoned because there was no accumulated wear? Why exacerbate this? And, with each new drilled hole in the anchor area, aren't you curious as to how the integrity of the rock will be affected? How about in 3 years with two more holes..5 years...well screw those guys, I won't be climbing then anyway...time to go abuse some other resourse somewhere else.....

You're worried about bolts being abused from victory whips!? Let's get people to stop TRing their gumby asses off the anchors, and then we can talk about victory whips. You're talking about bolts 3-5 years from now. I've seen TRed anchors on popular routes need replacing within a year of the bolt being placed. Now that's the real abuse against resources. Besides, Wes clearly stated that he will not do this at Muir so why are you trying to bring up a thread that's 6 months old?

Why was this tired thread reinvigorated? It died six months ago. Let it.

Wes wrote:Whatever rules Rick wishes to set for climbing in Muir is cool with me. But, I think it is wrong to use the theory that victory whippers are unsafe for the bolts to justify banning victory whippers.

So you don't think there is any problem with toproping through the anchors, either?

ZSpider

Spragwa--Sorry if this hits a soft spot

Cliff Heindel wrote:After Rick's incredibly patient replies on the test-bolting results thread...

I just think that this revolution in sport rappelling not be confused as a modification of 'climbing' practices.

let's have a new T-shirt modification party- we can bring VW kool-aid

ok so now I am very confused again. And since this very cool thread was brought out of the grave, I have to ask this very serious question.

Who does VW? I can not honestly remember the last time I saw one. In fact the only time I ever remember seeign what might be defined as a VW was when Katie Brown's brother(cant' remember his name) redpointed Gung Ho. Katie was belaying him and he was like, "are you ready Katie I am going to take the Victory Whip?" Katie got really upset and refused to give him any slack. So being the nice older brother he just lowered.

OK now for the real question. Is there a difference between a VW and a lead fall to "get your head in the game". I have done the lead fall to "get my head in the game" many many times. When I keep sketchin in a crux or grabing a draw or not commiting to moves, it helps me to take the fall a few times to get my head into it. Would that be considered a VW and thus against the rules at MV?

Remember, though, Rick is on a crusade, so get used to it.

do your feet talk to each other?

what about working routes? is this OK? unless you're climbing below your ability you are being IRRESPONSIBLE because you will most likely be falling. or what about getting to a point on a route where you're at the bolt, but too pumped to clip? what would traditional climbing ethics tell you to do - neglect of the anchors for future climbers, sack up, and go for it possibly creating an enormous fall...or not to be irresponsible and grab the draw for safetys sake? i just need to know what is irresponsible and what isn't so i don't get killed in the crusade?

speaking of traditional ethics, what's up with placing bolts in the first place? it seems weird that all this talk of "ethics" and quotes from semi-famous mountaineers is used in the defense of taking a fall on a bolted one-pitch climb within minutes of rescue. screw that! let's just take a one-dimensional view and use out of context ideals to make this crusade sound good!

now that i think about it, i think anyone planning on climbing in the red river gorge should have to attend a safetey meeting of sorts. there will be a wall designated to cataloging each climbers abilities on overhanging, vertical, and slab in various degrees of temperature and humidity. you will receive a card with your calculated climbing grade for each type, and will be required to climb at or below said grade. when you feel up to moving up in grades, re-certification is required. i will post all results instantly for all to see.