absolutely....we feel the love over here...
come on mia....4 groups of 4 or one group of 16....all at the same crag...seems like the overall erosion equation is the same...
once more...we all want to get our piece of the pie, but to hell with anyone else enjoying it...
warning: big group at pebble and pistol this weekend
Well there's the invitation folks, various outdoor groups head down to So. Ill and get away from the hassles of permits, access, and environmental damage...
and we aren't talking about 1 university or outdoor group visiting the red are talking about several that converge on the red often and make their presence very obvious...
and we aren't talking about 1 university or outdoor group visiting the red are talking about several that converge on the red often and make their presence very obvious...
excellent point mia....you are correct. ~ Pigsteak
btw wasn't this your post in the So. Ill thread, pig?
so do you want large groups to come to So. Ill and mess up your access or do you just want to argue about how us Red locals are a pain in the ass?pigsteak wrote:well said eagleman....since most of the boulders are on private land, fewer people is always better.
excellent point mia....you are correct. ~ Pigsteak
Strum, what did you guys get on? Since I couldn't get down I live vicariously through others.
Given that you did do your homework pre-trip did you learn anything from this thread? Other than that there are a lot of opinions out there and passionate enthusiasts about the Red, climbing, the environment, etc. (Really, don't we all read these posts with a little bit of humor in our souls?)
And SikMonkey, I don't know if you really want to meet me. I mean afterall,
"When she climbs it always rains." Or something like that.
Given that you did do your homework pre-trip did you learn anything from this thread? Other than that there are a lot of opinions out there and passionate enthusiasts about the Red, climbing, the environment, etc. (Really, don't we all read these posts with a little bit of humor in our souls?)
And SikMonkey, I don't know if you really want to meet me. I mean afterall,
"When she climbs it always rains." Or something like that.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
- Robert McCloskey
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
- Emo Philips
- Robert McCloskey
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
- Emo Philips
I too work with a university and bring groups to the Red. I was also at Southern Illinois this weekend with a group and it was just as crowded there as any crag in the Red. I would also like to state that erosion from groups is no different in Illinois then in the Red. What I see here is what is commonly know as NIMBYism (Not In My Backyard). So, it's okay (not that we need anyone's permission, besides necessary permits) if these university groups go somewhere just as long as it isn't where you are going to be. It is no small matter to try and make everyone happy-teach large groups, but yet avoid crags where anyone else might be climbing. I realize it is not enjoyable to see a group of 12 people walk around a corner and set up camp beneath a climb. However, the participants/students have just as much right to these resources as anyone else. Certainly I make every effort to stay out of everyone's way, pick up our trash as well as other climbers, and make as little impact as possible-but, you can't make everyone happy all the time. So, I apologize if we have ever inconvienced anyone. The reason we go to the Red is because of the amazing climbing, Miguel's pizza, and beautiful scenery. Given the fact that there are over 1,000 routes in the Red I don't think it should be much of a problem to share some of these routes. There is a shortage of easy routes which means we are often located at the same areas- Fortress, Roadsite, etc.
It could also be alot worse, watch groups going up Rainer or the Grand Teton and you will appreciate the fact that all you may notice at the Red are some vans parked in a parking lot.
It could also be alot worse, watch groups going up Rainer or the Grand Teton and you will appreciate the fact that all you may notice at the Red are some vans parked in a parking lot.
"But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads?" – Lord Byron
Well, I always like to meet new people, but if you really are a harbinger of death....I mean "rain bringer"...... then I should probably stay away from you because I need all the dry climbing days I can get this year.And SikMonkey, I don't know if you really want to meet me. I mean afterall,
"When she climbs it always rains." Or something like that.
Now my question is thus: Do you really want to be the queen?
Mj
...quitting drinking is kinda like washing your hands after you take a crap...why start now?
Eric, wasn't that wierd this weekend..in my 12 years climbing at Jackson, that was the most people I have ever seen...
Mia, yes, I just want to be a pain in the ass..don't you know that by now...?
I was "alarmed" by the beer cans and soda cans at Jackson this weekend,and the at 50 horse riders on MY trails...to make myself feel good, I picked up the trash I saw..
The Holy Boulders are very distinct from Jackson Falls....an hour apart...the holy boulders actually have a limit on the number of people allowed there (if the parking lot is full of cars, the land owner does not allow additional parking or climbing)
Big groups don't bother me at Jackson..unattended barking dogs do.
Mia, yes, I just want to be a pain in the ass..don't you know that by now...?
I was "alarmed" by the beer cans and soda cans at Jackson this weekend,and the at 50 horse riders on MY trails...to make myself feel good, I picked up the trash I saw..
The Holy Boulders are very distinct from Jackson Falls....an hour apart...the holy boulders actually have a limit on the number of people allowed there (if the parking lot is full of cars, the land owner does not allow additional parking or climbing)
Big groups don't bother me at Jackson..unattended barking dogs do.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
pigsteak- I was also amazed at the number of people at Jackson this weekend. I have never seen it so crowded in the parking lot and camping spots across the road. What is more amazing is the lack of people that I saw where we were climbing. It is a testament to how spread out all of the routes there are and how you can still experience some isolation despite the 50 cars in the area for one crag. I always like seeing the horses, usually they are pretty nice and don't step on the ropes! 
"But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads?" – Lord Byron
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the lurkist
- Posts: 2240
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
Eric wrote-
However, the participants/students have just as much right to these resources as anyone else.
The DBFS is for everyone. NIMBY (aka xenophobia) can raise its ugly head, but I for one would try to guard against it and invite everyone. As I have said, the more folks on board with climbing in the Red, the more grass roots support.
But your statement indicates to me that you have forgotten that the routes you are probably climbing on aren't naturally occuring. Sport routes were "put up" by someone. There aren't enough easy low end routes in the Red. Perhaps if yours and other large groups introducing bus loads of new climbers to the sport want a sense of proprietorship/ ownership and would like to say you have just as much right to climb these routes as everyone else, perhaps you should support the people who are volunteering their free time and money to make sure you have a place to bring your groups.
I suggest you contact the RRGCC and make a donation with the request that attention could be paid to establishing an area with a bunch of 5.8s and 5.9s with a good flat hardened base and good parking close by. If not a donation, organize your group for a working weekend in the Red doing service projects such as trail work and base work. Twelve people with maddocks can get a lot of work done in four hours. Perhaps you could canvas other University and club groups to pool your resources. Having sponsored an area you can truely make statements like the one quoted.
Hugh
However, the participants/students have just as much right to these resources as anyone else.
The DBFS is for everyone. NIMBY (aka xenophobia) can raise its ugly head, but I for one would try to guard against it and invite everyone. As I have said, the more folks on board with climbing in the Red, the more grass roots support.
But your statement indicates to me that you have forgotten that the routes you are probably climbing on aren't naturally occuring. Sport routes were "put up" by someone. There aren't enough easy low end routes in the Red. Perhaps if yours and other large groups introducing bus loads of new climbers to the sport want a sense of proprietorship/ ownership and would like to say you have just as much right to climb these routes as everyone else, perhaps you should support the people who are volunteering their free time and money to make sure you have a place to bring your groups.
I suggest you contact the RRGCC and make a donation with the request that attention could be paid to establishing an area with a bunch of 5.8s and 5.9s with a good flat hardened base and good parking close by. If not a donation, organize your group for a working weekend in the Red doing service projects such as trail work and base work. Twelve people with maddocks can get a lot of work done in four hours. Perhaps you could canvas other University and club groups to pool your resources. Having sponsored an area you can truely make statements like the one quoted.
Hugh
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
Normie