Hey Sandbagger

[krampus]

And by the way, you pussies, no one asked you if you liked it.

Just needed repeating. Anyone who really cares probably just wants their 12c climber status back. Well, why did you try it in the first place? oh yeah, cus someone told you it was soft. While we are at it, can we downgrade Mule and Possie Whipped too.

[One-Fall]

I guess I don't fully understand the problem with grade adjustment. You still sent the route. That isn't being taken from you. Say you sent Ro, and you were told it was 12c, and you later find out it was 12a. You still sent Ro. The only thing that changed was a relativistic number.

Side note: The world is full of crags that have awesome stone and great movement, but are rarely visited because the grades are sandbagged. After this last season in the Red, maybe that isn't such a bad idea

[krampus]

I think your on to something One-Fall

[heavyc]

Here is my two cents (and unfortunately my opinion on this isn't probably worth that much):
I think the best person to grade a route is someone who is climbing very near their limit from a redpoint aspect i.e. for 12a someone who has tried several 12a's sent a few with several goes and also been shut down by a few. Therefore, unless you have a good memory of how a route felt when you first worked it and you happened to be climbing near that level at that time then you probably aren't the best person to give it a grade, especially if it is now a number grade or more below your current level and even more so if you have got it wired (for instance those who warm up on Chainsaw can not imagine how hard it feels to someone working it for the redpoint).
Also there has to be some soft routes at every grade level and you also need to keep in mind that different routes can feel a lot different to climbers with different strengths. I can't argue with downgrading BEHJ but Stephanie is not the only person I have heard that felt BEHJ was harder than Herd (of which I disagree but I am more than willing to accept that opinion as valid).
Chriss wrote:
Reticent 12c (easier than the other two 12c's in the cave)
Jesus Wept 12c (I think most people would agree, even though it was my first 12d)
Harvest 12c (about the same as resurrection)
swahili slang 12b
Irreverent C 12b (the same as false idol)
Directed Panspermia 12a
Magnum Opus 12a (Not the same grade as the other 12b's on the wall)
Zone of silence 12a (If you climb the path of least resistance )
Deep six 12a
Gladuator 11d / 12a
Ro ???
Ohio arts 11d
Immaculate deception 11d
Ball Scratcher 11d
Flying monkeys 11d
crack the whip 11ish
beef stick 11d
J rats back 11c/d
I would agree with most of this (a couple I either haven't sent or been on) but I feel Jesus Wept is just a softer 12d. I also suspect that Swahili Slang may be harder for the shorter climber as I thought the high dihedral was easier for the taller climber.
Also the Africa Project at Sunnyside is probably 11d/12a (as opposed to 12+) and really needs some bolts as it is a neat route.
And finally: Andrew's (not the stronger one) opinion on route grades should be completely ignored as he is a freak, and thinks Rocket Dog is 10c

[JR]

I think the best person to grade a route is someone who is climbing very near their limit from a redpoint aspect i.e. for 12a someone who has tried several 12a's sent a few with several goes and also been shut down by a few.

I agree with this too. But what are the chances that the FA is this guy.

Who is the second best person to grade a route? Someone that is very familiar with the area and grade of the route.

[lena_chita]

and as a side note, Ray your guidebook is the best I have ever seen, hands down.

Thanks! Hopefully the 3rd edition will be even better. I'm downgrading 95% of the routes so it should be exciting.

Make sure you were flame-retardant suit then. But do please publish the new guidebook becasue I agree, it is awesome.

I hope you don't down-grade da Bibliothek more. I think it is already the area to take someone to if they spout about Muir Valley being uniformly soft. LOL, and while I agree that a climb like The Incredible Lightness of Being is nowhere near .12a that it was originally given, with .11c being spot on, I can think of a couple climbs at da Bibliothek that I wouldn't mind to see upgraded instead of down-graded.

I am curious, how often do you up-grade a climb, relatively to down-grading? Is it one upgrade for every 3 down-grades? 1 upgrade for every 10 down-grades, or what?

[heavyc]

JR, good point but I think if that person is more than a number grade stronger than the route to be graded that he would be better off trying to find some opinions from climbers who are closer to their limits (who also can step back from their egos and admit that maybe one of their hardest sends is soft for the grade)

[Green3]

On the other side...

How is it everybody says that Team Wilson is the hardest one on that wall, harder than Convicted, a supposed benchmark of 13a, and no one wants it upgraded?

Is it safe to say accuracy is only required so you or your climbing area aren't labeled soft?

[Green3]

By the way Hugh, funniest post in a damn long time was your prediction of this thing going 7 pages back on page 2.

[SCIN]

On the other side...

How is it everybody says that Team Wilson is the hardest one on that wall, harder than Convicted, a supposed benchmark of 13a, and no one wants it upgraded?

Is it safe to say accuracy is only required so you or your climbing area aren't labeled soft?

No. I've upgraded routes in the print guide before and do it in the online guide as well. As a matter of fact I just did an upgrade about an hour ago.