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Look around you at the crag.....90% of the time people are lowering, not rapping. People on here who say they rap most of the time are lying. Rapping is better for the chains, but the reality of life is that everyone lowers. Get used to it, and work around it.

Wes wrote:Tr'ing through the anchors is much worse. Because you generally see people hangdoging, which is a little saw effect when they go up a foot or two, then back down a foot. And TR'ing runs the rope accross the anchors twice, once on the way up, and once on the way down. And, once the tr is set up, usually you see people take several runs. So, you might end up with 6-7 times the rope runs accross the anchors, where lowering is just one. Just go look at the steep / hard routes that people don't TR, but do lower through.

Wes

I understand your point Wes. I wasn't thinking about people top-roping through the actual anchors, hang-dogging, running laps, etc. That's why people top-roping should use quickdraws. Then the last person up the route can clean it.

By the way, most climbing gyms do teach rappeling. Also, most people (if they are from the midwest) do head to the trad cliffs of the midwest for their first time climbing on real rock. This is true of myself, many of my friends, an several others that I have known and met. Definitely more the norm than the exception. And, if we are talking about single pitch sport routes then it's usually not to hard to see if both ends of the rope reach the ground. Besides what's the big deal if someone asks for a person on the ground to verify this?

Regardless of the order you do it, or whether you are "on belay" or not.....you still have to clip in, thread the rope, untie, reattach, and get lowered to the ground. All these steps invite error...but they are all essential to both lowering or rappelling. You can do them in any order you like....but they are still steps that need to be done....please feel free to share if anyone has figured out a way to skip steps

Read my above post. You are never off belay or untied from the rope.

rhunt wrote:The gym I climb at does not teach rappelling but then again they don't teach outdoor climbing.

I don't understand. How is outdoor climbing taught and how big is that difference - learning it indoors/outdoors? Granted you can't teach trad indoors, but I think however you climb sport or boulder indoors is pretty much the same as outdoors. Don't you guys have a lead wall in your local gym?

rhunt wrote:Not trying to get into a pissing fight here but I have say it is up to me and only me to decide what kind of climbing I will do the rest of my life, if my body lets me I will sport climb and boulder the rest of my life. I think it great that you and many others here on this board are in to all types of climbing but to assume other see it that way or will...it's not that way.

I'm not saying you have to participate in all types of climbing, what I said was that whatever form or type of climbing you take up, it is a good idea to learn how to rappel. It can be pretty handy in a lot of situations.

squeezindlemmon wrote:Sport, trad, multi-pitch.... whatever way you climb, don't you think it's a good idea to learn how to rappel, rhunt?

Aenima wrote: Read my above post. You are never off belay or untied from the rope.

I will read it again if you read mine again ;o)

Aenima wrote:
After clipping yourself to the anchors....
...Pinch the rope and push it through the anchors....
....attach to your harness....
...Then you can untie your original knot ....

Sounds like all the same steps to me in a differnt order like I said.

I'm not necessarily skipping any steps, but I am already attached to the rope before I untie my knot.
Yes, different order, but much safer and quicker.
Do you see?

I do it a tad differently. I leave the rope through the draws, pull slack through the draws, make a figure 8 on a bite and clip it to my belay loop (that way I am still on belay through the draws). Then, I untie, run it through the anchors and retie. I double check my system, untie the figure 8 and ask my belayer to take me back on them. I'm never off belay. NO chance.

Aenima wrote:I'm not necessarily skipping any steps, but I am already attached to the rope before I untie my knot.
Yes, different order, but much safer and quicker.
Do you see?

Yes, I think that is safer, I have never disagreed with that.

But These are all still steps that need to be done, and done correctly regardless of rappelling or lowering...tracing back to the original topic.

I think that if a person feels safer using a particular method then they should continue to do so, but they should also be receptive to other ideas and techniques required for different circumstances. It seems that all of these methods are safe and effective.

And of course, if you want to top-rope (especially when doing laps, working a route, or climbing with a group) then use quickdraws.