Jesus H

[pigsteak]

lol ynp..just trying to make these arguments more fun..the fact remains that believers and non believers are both convinced of the viability of their positions. there are some doubting christians, as there are some non believers who wonder if there is a god.

75% of folks are decent people no matter their stripes. the other 25% are politicians, so at least we can keep an eye on them.

[JR]

I agree with pigsteak, whatahutch and dollyjn on this one. Sorry ynp1. You might be putting something on this "faith" definition that is not there.

Faith: confidence or trust in a person or thing.

The money system is a perfect analogy for faith.

You wrote "It(faith) is when you make a choice that goes aginst lodgic, facts, science, experiences, etc." I do agree with you that this would be a better working definition as it pertains to religion.

[mike_a_lafontaine]

I think there are different degrees in faith. Faith can be based on logic, facts, past history. I have faith that my daughter will try hard in school. She has in the past and has done well. I have faith that I will never win the lottery. I exercise this faith by not playing. That is your every day, run of the mill faith.

Or it can be illogical, non-fact based. Like the idea that a 600-year old man traveled around the world to find two of everything to take with him on a 40 day fishing trip. Lets see...what is the grocery list for 4 elephants, 10 Rhinos, and (if you believe some of the fundamentalists) all those freaking dinosaurs and prehistoric mammals? Must have been a big flippin' boat! This would be blind faith.

[krampus]

My proof that god is everywhere, in a nut shell:

When sentient beings wade through the physicial world they adapt to their surrounding and learn what they can about their environment to make their next encounter with a similar situation go more smoothly. When something is unknown it is put on "god" or some veriation of god be it magic or spagetti monsters. So that means that everything that is know that has ever been unknown was at one time god's work, or a part of god. Now what lies beyond the standard model and string theory is currently "gods" relm. And everything that will be known currently is or will be god up until its point of being theorized or discovered. Therefore, everything that has ever been, or will ever be is undeniably god, with the only singularity being the now.

[ynot]

Y'all make my brain hurt.I want my rocking chair and green tea

[JR]

Interesting Krampus. Makes sense to me I guess. I would change a few things though. I would change the title slightly.

My Proof That We Don't Know Shit About Shit

[Crankmas]

Good point JR, reminds of the concrete nature of science, its proven right until further knowledge renders it no longer true... no wonder academics are soo touchy, they never know if what they believe to be true is or is not...

[rhunt]

Ahhh nothing like a good religion debate on a rock climbing forum. Whatahutch, I "hope" that I don't offend you by saying; its scary how much you sound....well just like me 15 years ago. I had a "bible" answer for everything and I was completely convinced I was right. I wrapped myself in a warm illusion of biblical certainty and I didn't really want to be friends with anyone who thought differently. Thank goodness I found rock climbing and outdoorsy, hippy, liberal people who help me out of that destructive black and white way of thinking and living. Do I still believe in God? Certainly not the christian god of the bible BUT maybe some sort of higher power that gives order to things....but really that is even a stretch for me these days. The hardest yet most freeing thing I have learned is that there is no certainty, no absolutes, nothing but what we make of each moment.

Timothy Leary said it best,

"Think for yourself
Question authority

Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself."

My current religion is P90X. I follow it religiously, believe in it completely, worship it's leader Tony Horton and I certain I will be ripped in 90 days!

[ynp1]

Krampus... You can redefine the word god all you want. It really doesn't do any good to anybody. Humans have been using the term "god" or any other name to define things that are unknown. If everything that is unknown is god, then yes I believe in god, but that is not the god we are talking about.

Crankmas... I don't think you are right at all about academic types being touching about their beliefs... I think the churchy type are a little more. If there was proof that god excites I would exept it and move on, just like I do when I learn anything new.

rhunt... You sound a lot like the writer of godless. I value your oppinion on this matter, because you have been on both sides.

JR... I don't mind that you don't agree with me. To each their own.

[whatahutch]

Whatahutch, I "hope" that I don't offend you by saying; its scary how much you sound....well just like me 15 years ago. I had a "bible" answer for everything and I was completely convinced I was right. I wrapped myself in a warm illusion of biblical certainty and I didn't really want to be friends with anyone who thought differently. Thank goodness I found rock climbing and outdoorsy, hippy, liberal people who help me out of that destructive black and white way of thinking and living.

Rhunt you don't offend me. I have not actually been offended once in this conversation. I shook my head once or twice in disbelief. (Mostly in that the majority of people that are in the climbing community can be so accepting of everybody and everything and the first mention of Jesus or the Bible and they are ready to kill the messenger. Which seems to juxtapose what they normally say).

You sound similar to me ten years ago. My favorite writer was Hunter S. Thompson. My favorite musician was Jim Morrison. My favorite movies were Almost Famous, Fight Club, and a toss up between The Color of Money and Blow. My hair was long enough to put into a pony tail and I had chops on my face the size of Texas. When my friends saluted me it was, "Hey Hippy." I wrote papers about legalizing marijuana, and angry rants about the wrongs of a materialistic vain society. I had a slight sexual addiction. I hated George W. and all that the "conservatives" stood for.

My favorite thing to do was to smoke pot, drink beer, and debate the existence of God.

Finally after a number of confrontations with Christians where I told them things like, "Jesus never claimed to be the God." I was semi-challenged to find out the truth for myself.
In my arrogance I said I will then.
I picked up a Bible and put God to the test. (Which the Bible says to do if you don't believe).
I started to see things differently. I started to realize I was not the center of the world. I started to realize that no mater what my culture tells me my life is not about me. I read things about Jesus offering a free gift of life, a free pass without me doing works to save my life and soul, etc. I am not going to get into a testimony here though.

By the time ynp1 met me I was a different man. At that time people were surprised when I mentioned that I drank beer (which I still do). They were in disbelief if I told them I used to do drugs and that I had sex before I got married. By the time I met ynp1 a lot of my anger towards the world was replaced with solace. My theology was "conservative," but in no way then or now am I on the "right." (I think that all politicians and the majority of evangelical media preachers are crooks and liars).

Again, I say that I am not trying to convert anyone. I haven't even really broke the surface of my theological views, and have really tried to limit my responses in the hopes that I don't offend anyone.

If I have offended anyone I apologize. I am sincerely sorry.

I do however challenge every person that takes offense to the Bible, the God of Abraham, or Jesus to find out for themselves why. Do your own research.
In that way I respect Clifton because he knows what he stands against.
And like ynp said, I also respect you rhunt because you have walked both sides.
I also appreciate everyone that has kept this on the light side, like Pigsteak and Brentucky.
The humor and lightness keeps things enjoyable.

With that I will add one more (longer) Bible quote. My favorite verses are 7-10.

Ecclesiastes 9:1-10(New International Version)

A Common Destiny for All
1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God’s hands, but no one knows whether love or hate awaits them. 2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad,[a] the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.

As it is with the good,
so with the sinful;
as it is with those who take oaths,
so with those who are afraid to take them.

3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.