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tank, you'll notice that the dark side would be a perfect place to conduct an experiment. real climbers would never help another person if it interfered with their climbing. it is the entitlement mentaility we selfish bastards have. sad, but the harder we climb, the less we have a grip on humanity, and what truly matters.

hmm.... perhaps an experiment would be good, although we'd have to control for other variables (perhaps the hike out is longer/more of a pain in the ass... weight/height or gender of climber.... chest size... )

Chest size. Yes. That would sway my decision for sure.

lol...fine, control the variables, but let me tell you how it goes..

"what, some dude cracked his skull open and his guts are on the ground? man, is he gonna be ok? is anyone gonna call 911? let me get my draws off this line, and then I'll come over. damn it, the dew point went up, and now my palms are sweating from this turmoil. hey, belayer, you can't just take off to go check out teh situation. how am I gonna get my draws? oh , they are fixed draws? oh yeah, well, maybe just one more burn to see if I can match my high point. not mch we can do for the dude until emergency rescue gets here. plus, I haven't climbed since wednesday, and three rest days in a row sucks. plus, the brah was a dumb ass for trying a route over his head. anyway, gumbies shouldn't be allowed in my "send fest" zone."

hey, who are you? taking a survey you say? sure, I got time. do I get free schwag for this? I heard OW got sponsored this way....yeah man, climbing is all about the cool people you hang with....except for this douche spilling his guts on my rope bag. excuse me man, could you scream in pain somewhere else...my positive vibes are getting red zoned."

I don't use a rope bag. Otherwise, thats how I'd react.

good shit piglet, brah

carrying someone out can ruin the whole day. and being carried out sucks too. definately something to be avoided whenever possible.

i think i'm going to scale back the "help" i give to gumbies when it is more friendly advice and nothing to do with safety (ie directionals in an overhanging route) - unless they seem to want advice. and i'll probably still say things when it comes down to safety issues (ie opening the handle of a grigri to pay out slack) regardless if it's well received or not. i try to be diplomatic but that's certainly not my strong suit.

If you try to give some advice, and do it nicely, and it's obvious that you are in right, and the gumby is an ahole in response, then its their loss.

It is frustrating, sometimes discouraging, when that happens. But you should still do the right thing.

Once I told somebody (who clearly was somewhat experienced - not their first day) that their harness legloops were not double-backed. He replied "I know...." That messed with me a little, that he didn't say "oh thanks, bro, you are the coolest!"

But I got over it, and still try to say something then people are doing something unsafe. I hope others will jump in if they see me slipping.

When I approach I try to start off with "sorry to bug you..." or "not trying to bust your balls, dude, but..."

If it isn't a safety issue then I usually leave them be. As far as hardware is concerned, am reminded by this forum to keep an eye out for that. "it's not a huge deal, but it does help keep the anchors in good shape by running tr though your own draws...."

But then you'll have those cases where somebody set s tr up for a team of gumbies 'beacuse they didn't know how to clean'. You can say something, but you're not going ot have much impact. Still it's probably good to say something, and be dickish about it, because it's about the shaming factor in that case.

60% of the time, it works every time.

Josephine wrote:carrying someone out can ruin the whole day. and being carried out sucks too. definately something to be avoided whenever possible.

i think i'm going to scale back the "help" i give to gumbies when it is more friendly advice and nothing to do with safety (ie directionals in an overhanging route) - unless they seem to want advice. and i'll probably still say things when it comes down to safety issues (ie opening the handle of a grigri to pay out slack) regardless if it's well received or not. i try to be diplomatic but that's certainly not my strong suit.

Sounds like the best way to go........

It's smart to read the accident reports and understand what can go wrong even with the more experienced. Nobody wants to see an accident or even the remains of an accident. Looks like yosar has been busy this year.

http://www.friendsofyosar.org/rescues/rescues.html