RRC Archives

I think you are on to something Ray. That is what I try to do. We ALL make mistakes. With mistakes, just like history, if we don't learn from our actions we are doomed. Just because we don't have accidents doesn't mean we have sound safety practices. It could mean that the right chain of events hasn't occured to do us in. Accidents are ususally caused by a chain of events. If we are aware of this we can recognize the chain and break a link in this accident chain. That is usually all it takes to prevent an avoidable accident. An example in climbing would be allowing yourself to become distracted(maybe you are in a hurry to get on a popular route) while tying in and fail to finish your knot, and then, not doulble checking yourself or your partner not double checking. How many of us actually check to see that the climber is properly tied in and that all buckles are doubled? I rarely see anyone check their partner be they climber or belayer! We all make safey related decisions in climbing...like not wearing a helment and accepting the added risk. But we never decide not to finish a knot or not to double back our buckles or to drop someone. We have to be aware of sound safety practices and use them. Simply using acronyms can help. The one I use every time I clean an anchor or rap is BARK. B- Buckle(doubled), A- Anchor(sound anchor with the rope through anchor properly), R- Rappel/Belay device(properly rigged and locked), K- Knot (retied properly for lowering or at the end of the rope for a long rap). I could go on and on.

for clipping I feed slack like a gri-gri (pretty much have to as every one knows, otherwise you are going to short rope the climber) , so I guess my hand isn't always on the brake side of the rope, otherwise I use it like an ATC. The same type of "gray" area occurs with other devices. When you are quickly feeding rope with an ATC the brake hand often isn't in an optimum position to hold a fall as it is usually sliding away from the device, feeding rope such that the ATC is in a non-biting position. This is definitely the time to be most aware no matter what device you are using. I was assuming SCIN meant not keeping the hand on the brake side of the rope when the cam was engaged and is actively holding the rope, as opposed to a passive device where this could get your climber dropped to the ground.

Sunshine wrote:An example in climbing would be allowing yourself to become distracted(maybe you are in a hurry to get on a popular route) while tying in and fail to finish your knot, and then, not doulble checking yourself or your partner not double checking. How many of us actually check to see that the climber is properly tied in and that all buckles are doubled? I rarely see anyone check their partner be they climber or belayer! We all make safey related decisions in climbing...like not wearing a helment and accepting the added risk. But we never decide not to finish a knot or not to double back our buckles or to drop someone. We have to be aware of sound safety practices and use them. Simply using acronyms can help. The one I use every time I clean an anchor or rap is BARK. B- Buckle(doubled), A- Anchor(sound anchor with the rope through anchor properly), R- Rappel/Belay device(properly rigged and locked), K- Knot (retied properly for lowering or at the end of the rope for a long rap). I could go on and on.

This should be a required element and practiced by everyone...isn't it? Double checking each other is how we avoid accidents. I use to give belay lessons at my local climbing gym and I would stress the hell out of double checking each other. One of our wost accidents at our gym could have been totally avoided had the balayer check the climbers knot, he did not and his climber decked resulting in a severe back injure.

Why does anyone take their brake hand off of the rope when dishing for a leader? Scary shit fo' so'. Squeeze the cam on the Gri-Gri between the last 2 fingers and palm. This allows you to keep your fore finger and thumb on the rope. Gri-gri are perfectly safe. You can develop bad habits using them, but this method maintains good form.

Toy, interesting suggestion, I wonder if this would help serve as a reminder to a person to not "freeze up" while giving out slack? Like anything, it would take practice.

At my local gym and probably most gyms, they always test people's belaying skills while having someone hold onto the rope as an extra anchor. If some one is working with a newer belayer and there are extra people around, this may not be a bad crag practice either.

Meadows wrote:Getting slack out with that method is a pain.

I almost decked when a belayer tried to use that method and kept short-roping me on a clip. She locked up the gri-gri and couldn't get the slack out. Finally I couldn't hold on anymore and whipped with about one foot between me and the ground. That's when I quit letting anyone I am not 100% sure of belay me. I think that technique should be mastered before it's recommended for use at the crag.

Toy wrote:.......... Squeeze the cam on the Gri-Gri between the last 2 fingers and palm. This allows you to keep your fore finger and thumb on the rope. Gri-gri are perfectly safe. You can develop bad habits using them, but this method maintains good form.

Exactly. I try and hold the gigi open when feeding rope but the rope is still running through my thumb and forefinger. When someone whips it's just my natural reaction to slide that brake hand down the rope and wrap it around my thigh/waist. Basically it's the same technique I use w/ an ATC with a little change for the gigi. A competent belayer is not dependant on the device, just like an incompetent belay doesn't get bonus points with any particular device.

It really is just simpler to boulder.

i have to agree w/ Spragwa on this...

i will not let anyone lead belay me unless i am 110% sure of their belay technique, whether it's w/ a gri-gri or an atc-type device. i was once dropped indoors while my belayer was using a gri-gri, and despite the fact that she is a good friend, i have not let her lead belay me since.

BAH your a pus, you only fell give or take five feet!

this thread got me double checking myself and others. I noticed I was about 50-50 index thumb vs hand farther up the gri-gri-- so I try to stay closer to 100 with the index thumb for the feeds, no short-roping yet. Definitely, more of an ATC style as I had hoped, thanks for the catalyst...