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maybe piggie should just take all his bolt and go home, that way we don't wind up with anchors like those on Amarillo. And no one would be tempted to go to curbside

so, never having bolted or fa'd a route, feeling a little on the outside, i thought i'd jump in. i've seen in some guidebooks (and i believe on some route descriptions in the rrg guide book) where both the equipper and the fa-ist are listed. i don't know about anyone else, but when i see it, my heartfelt gratitude goes to the bolter, and i never really remember who got the fa. sorry.

that said, i do feel that the person who put the route up should have first crack at it. all this proprietary stuff seems a little nonsensical. it's rock. when someone bolts a route we should bake them really good cookies, duly record the deed, and respect their wishes. access issues aside, the rock's not going anywhere in our lifetimes and if we love climbing as much as we say, we'll come back and get on that closed project after the equipper dies (he or she must be much, much older than us, right?). doesn't seem so complicated to me.

red tags are like community organizers fuck em both

chriss wrote:

512OW wrote: Chriss... if you did Pistol Gripped... have em change it. It doesn't matter to me who climbed it first, just that it gets climbed...

I am glad that you are so understanding. If this is the case can someone please change the info in the online guide. I would like it changed to

Pistol Whipped
5.11d (M) ****
FA Chriss

Hopefully you don't mind the downgrade. Probably only feels harder without the proper technique (or humidity?)

I don't mind the downgrade. I can hardly tell the difference between 11d and 12a or 12b. All feels like 5.10. You'd be better at seeing the difference. You should probably use your name though, as Chriss isn't your name...

Crankmas wrote:red tags are like community organizers fuck em both

hell yeah, or at least recommend them to a good massage therapist

now how did this happen...my route gets stolen, and I am now out in the cold. you guys change the name, the grade, remove me from the FA, but "all's good"..."all's cool"?

krampus, the chains on amarillo were lowered for the likes of you...the real finish was higher, but I knew entitled climbers would bitch either way.

kramp, I swear that chicks legit I think it is 744-4043 I admire your memory

i think the notion of an FA is so arbitrary for anyone other than the equipper anyways, unless we are talking about a route that has been too difficult for anyone to send it. why not let the equipper get the FA? i know i couldn't give a shit about the climber who was so "badasss" he snaked some 12d from someone (or 5.9, for that matter). the point is it's not like it wasn't being sent because it COULDN'T be sent. it's all about respect. i usually think of the climbing community in general as respectful, but unfortunately, a few bad apples always seem to ruin that perception.

and i also heard raether only opened the route because they were going to do it anyways. i also heard he really did not leave it tagged for that long; i guess he was injured for much of that time, which seems like a pretty valid reason for not getting on the route.

pigsteak wrote:I know this one has been killed before, but I want to revisit it. The latest rag has an article on stealing red tagged proj's.

What is the local consensus? Should any red tagged route be open to the strongest climber? Should the equipper be given 1 year? should there be any time constraints before a line becomes public property? should the equipper be monetarily compensated for their time and hardware if a red tagged route is snaked?

Is it cool to work a red tagged route before it is open? That is, dial the moves so as soon as the red tag is gone, you can send with all the beta sussed out?

Here is the article being referred to - http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php?id=37&type=news

Our local ethic is, "Respect red tagged routes." That meaning:

1) If the route has a red tag, stay off it period. It is a closed project.

2) If you have a question or an issue with the red tag, contact the route developer and try to work it out.

What I get out of the article is that route developers ought to think more about their motivations for keeping a project closed. Especially, when they have been approached about the line and they aren't actively working the project.

IMO, red tagging is not stifling progress in the Red. Case in point being 50 Words stood as an open project for 10 years before going down.

Also, having the community come up with a concensus on a red tag time limit and imposing it on others is not an "ethic" IMO.