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Always say something about misuse of fixed hardware, if nothing else direct them to the Team Suck site and suggest a donation. As for safety, it depends on the people...more often than not I will offer advice...even though I agree as Charlie pointed out I'm not there as babysitter, a mostly depised and thankless position. If the advice goes unheeded, which happens as often as not, then it's time to shag. I think I will adopt MSMITH's conversational tatics while packing up

Kdelap...I'm assuming you are a guide, sounds like you were in a lose/lose situation. If you had not affered advice and that young lady had been injured or worse, that guy sounds like the kind of fu**wad who would have probably sued you and your boss for not saving the girlfreind from his stupidity. People are like that, everybody's a victim seems like, no personal resposibility. Sometimes ya gotta let natural selection take it's course.

if you know more than someone and see them doing something "unsafe" or "inefficient" then talk them up and throw some advice if they seem willing. if they're not hurting anyone else or themselves then who really cares. many people disagree on many things, but in many things there is more than one way to skin a cat.

do what you want, be nice, be safe, be respectful. i've seen 11+ gym climbers taking on 5.8's. do i care? not really. do i find it amusing? heck yeah i do. will i talk some crap about it? heck yeah i will!

i've never had any trouble "yet," and i love getting advice from you people who know more than me. one day i'll return the favor to all the gumbies who desire the knowledge.

*in my best old man voice*
Back in the day, 1.7 years ago, I stopped saying stuff because as Charlie said there's just too much f&*ked up shit to keep up. I can think of many times where I bailed gumbies out - even set up top ropes for them when I saw they were going to kill themselves trying. I have also seen shit so F&%ked up I just had to walk away. I remember a time at LF, someone was leading Mr Bungle with a static line, steel biners - no draws - and with poorly tied webbing harnesses(swiss seats?). That one I had to walk away from. One of my favorites was to watch gumbies walk up to the AWOL wall at RS with their crash pad then proceed to try and lead one of the routes without a stick clip. The leader would be sketch out and about to deck while their friend sat on their crash pads and gave encouagement.

Brentucky wrote:if you know more than someone and see them doing something "unsafe" or "inefficient" then talk them up and throw some advice if they seem willing. .........

That is the problem. When you've been around the block a few times you can talk to people about.....

-soft catches or how not to give such an ankle breaking catch
-stand a little closer to the wall in this case
-keep the rope on the tarp
-easier to coil the rope this way
-hold your brake hand like this
-be careful holding the gri gri at that angle
-that third bolt is a bit of a dicey lead fall, watch him there
-drinking expensive beer out of bottle at the crag is inefficient
-aluminum is lighter, easier to pack out, and generally tastes better warm
-don't piss there, it won't get washed in the rain
-clean up your dog's shit
-you are a gumby and shouldn't be telling anyone how to do anything
-she would be having more fun with us
-pick up that ciggie butt

I could go on and on all day. The ratio of people that do everything properly and people that don't is frightening. When "experienced" climbers take it on themselves to educate in the only right way to do things it perpetuates the problem. They'll either figure it out, or they won't, but unless I have to carry someone out or replace some hardware then I generally keep my mouth shut.

The fight to educate gumbies is a Sisyphean labor and I have enough of those kinds of labors in my life.

If I may offer a different perspective on this topic:

I obviously am considered a gumby, newbie, inexperienced, etc.. as you can tell by my spray and post count. With that in mind it goes without saying I dont know everything about climbing but I do feel comftorable enough to attempt lower scaled climbs while I gain experience and if I was doing something that would jeopardize not only my health or that of the rock (anchors, route, etc) I would gratefully accept any advice or insight.

Unfortunalty I never had anyone to take me under their wings and show me the ropes. I have been going to the gyms trying to learn as much as possible but I can only learn so much there.

So, I am asking for those with experience to please dont hesitate to advise someone of my status because I personally would truly appreciate any help I can recieve.

unfortunately, wagnerje05, i think you are the exception rather than the rule. i would happily give advice to someone who asks, which happens rarely.

i think the problem arises when climbing becomes a bit TOO "subjective." everyone does things a bit differently, and i think newbies (and oldies) extrapolate from what they were taught. maybe they remember being taught to open up a gri-gri to feed slack (when in fact they definitely were not taught this). then it feels like a personal attack because they assume whoever taught them was experienced, and yet now they look incompetent in front of everyone at a crag.

i've been "ssshhed" several times at the crag when i told someone that a climber just backclipped. "oh, it's fine, don't worry about it." it gets old after awhile when your advice is ignored. i don't want to see people get hurt, but i don't want to waste my time, either.

wagnerje05, My suggestion is to work harder at finding that someone to "take you under their wing". That is how most of us learned about climbing. I am not suggesting you do this but to show up at the cliff and expect experienced people to 'show you the ropes' is not a good idea - we will resent that. Also if you can climb a 5.8 safely and with low anchor wear and tear, you can climb a 5.13 the same way.

rhunt, Thank you for the suggestion.

I apologize if I gave anyone the impression I was requesting those with more experience to actively seek out advise someone like myself.

Based on the topic, I just wanted to ensure others that there were some of us gumbies who were acceptable to advise whether for my best interest or those of the route. I have never knowingly done anything stupid but if anyone sees me out there please feel free to correct me.

I learned a new word today, thanks Charlie!

bcombs wrote:I learned a new word today, thanks Charlie!

glad to know i wasn't the only one who had to get out the dictionary on that post!