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Kenny has put a ton of blood sweat and tears into that crag. It's been great for him because developing a crag reinvigorated his love of the sport. I hope everyone supports his efforts and encourages other people to learn how to develop.

Of course, I'm much like VA and am just an old parasitic biddy feeding off the vision of others.

and what if the person bolted it just to stick there foot first in line? if someone else found it and you ran and bolted it, does that give you the right to say you didn't steal it? is it really first come first serve with regards to bolting? if that's the case, i could grid bolt everything out there not on fs land and say i have sole rights to the fa on all of them. just because someone bolted it doesn't necessarily mean they have some sort of ethical immunity. redemption doesn't come through work. it comes through purity of the process.. (wow.. sounding way too mystical). seriously, though, i wouldn't say by any means that i know ben. i've seen him at crags before and i've heard about him and, of course, everything i've heard has been that he's a nice guy and wouldn't be the type to do that. again, though, i don't know him.

are there flags on other bolts out there right now? cause think of it this way: you're out there, you know there have been several established and completed lines. you see around you several marked lines that remain undone. if one of the routes isn't flagged, wouldn't you assume that the line has been completed? what would lead you to think otherwise? and you might say to leave the area alone or be careful where you tread.. but i doubt even kenny would say "don't go back there cause you might get on something that's a project". he wants people back there (and maybe i'm just speaking for him now) and he wants them to enjoy it. watching him talk about it is great and he's always encouraging us to get back there.

accidents happen. let it be. that's the take home lesson. or, here's another way of thinking of it: if you're like ben and think you might have accidentally bagged a route that was someone's project, call them up and say, "hey man, did you ever get that x route you were working on? cause i think i might have gotten on it today and fell all over it. the crux is tricky. have fun getting it, just wanted to let you know the mark must have blown off" and keep it entirely to yourself.

good dialogue paul....however, lying about your ascent is not going to make it all better. i would argue you should own up, apologize, and offer to pay for the bolts and throw in some extra for their sweat equity..would that seem fair?

I agree about the bolting just to be first. It can be a difficult thing to overcome when you see what you consider a rad line...

pigsteak wrote:good dialogue paul....however, lying about your ascent is not going to make it all better. i would argue you should own up, apologize, and offer to pay for the bolts and throw in some extra for their sweat equity..would that seem fair?

Assuming I had the ability to climb something difficult enough to be a "project", I think I would prefer blissful ignorance. But, that's just me. Others might not feel that way.

Was this thing ever listed in any of the guides as actually existing? I would think that it would be listed as Project and therefore implied that the route was not open yet. (It's not my intention to point fingers at anyone here, especially since the only two peoples' opinions who actually matter have settled their differences. The rest of us are just blabbering.) I guess what we should be focusing on isn't whether it was climbed by someone who shouldn't have been on it yet, but why it wasn't still marked as being closed and how to keep it from happening again.

Ok, For one thing, I think it is pretty pathetic that someone yanked Tony's route and wont step up, That pisses me off most. Tony has worked hard down there helping me out with everything. If it wasnt for him and Hugh, then none of those routes would have been put up in the amount of time that they have been. Tony deserves to know who took his route out from underneath him and compensation for the time and money he spent on the route and maintiance of the cliff. I appriciate Hugh's post and he wouldnt think aobut posting anything like that unless he knew things were fact. I respect Hugh and look up to him as a Good friend when I need help and advice.

I will admit that I was really mad yesterday, but then I did realize I didint have a red tag on the route. I drilled it just before I left for indian creek and didnt have a tag with me. I thought it would be ok. That same weekend I talked to Benny and I told him about everything back at purgatory. Told him what was open and what I had done that he could get on. I dont care if people get on my routes I would just like them to call me first and ask if they have my premission to do them. He had my number to call me and ask me what the skinny was on that route But instead he decided to do it then call me which I thoguht was pretty disrespectful. I have known Benny for a long time and hearing this yesterday morning didnt suprise me because Of things he has told me in the past. I and anyone who develops routes deserve that much respect.

I now understand why there are secret crags and I will now keep anything that i establish a secret.

That's very unfortunate, on all counts.

Paul3eb wrote:and what if the person bolted it just to stick there foot first in line? if someone else found it and you ran and bolted it, does that give you the right to say you didn't steal it?

It probably grants the person the right to get their ass beat.

allah wrote:I now understand why there are secret crags and I will now keep anything that i establish a secret.

yeah.. it's a sad situation but understandable. sorry that it all happened man. you've got a scar on your lip to prove the work you've put into that place. to clear up what llr and i were wondering about: paradise lost is that arete you spotted the first time out there, right?

yea paradise lost is the arete, and I did that back on thanksgiving. This route "Fiddy" is to the left of paradise lost and clims the seam.