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your argument is insufficient

your dum

I'm with Pigsteak...

Climbing is a dangerous sport. And sport climbers are just getting plain lazy... I check my draws and gear when I rack up, I look at bolts before I clip them, I check my harness and my knot, I check my belayer, I check the rock and the pro that I place... I am responsible for me.

rjackson wrote:I'm with Pigsteak...

Climbing is a dangerous sport. And sport climbers are just getting plain lazy... I check my draws and gear when I rack up, I look at bolts before I clip them, I check my harness and my knot, I check my belayer, I check the rock and the pro that I place... I am responsible for me.

Russ, I agree with everything you said... but until we can come up with a real life workable solution we have to deal with the reality of what is.

amusing. consider rjackson's position the real life workable solution you're looking for

I do all of those things. It doesn't fix the problem.

1.) People are uneducated.
2.) Gear will be left on routes... period.

These are the problems that need to be fixed. Education is doable. Can you change the culture to have all gear taken down at the end of the day? If you can propose a workable method, I am all for it. Until then, we must do the best we can to keep the mank off.

climb2core wrote: 1.) People are uneducated.
2.) Gear will be left on routes... period.
These are the problems that need to be fixed. Education is doable. Can you change the culture to have all gear taken down at the end of the day? If you can propose a workable method, I am all for it. Until then, we must do the best we can to keep the mank off.

I mean, with multiple gear manufacturers either advising against fixed gear or clearly showing its dangers (such as the mammut article at the beginning of the thread and http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en ... carabiners), it seems like hardly an education problem. People know it's dangerous but choose the convenience fixed draws assuming that every person climbing the route will have the knowledge, gear and motivation to replace it once it's worn and not leave it for the next guy (an unreasonable expectation that will lead to accidents).

Trust me, people are far more ignorant about it than you give them credit for. How many of those gumbies trying those cool routes with permadraws on it are bothering to feel the edge of the biner and visually inspect before they clip?


Education is needed.

Unless all the locals unite with the crew and strip all gear, every time, for an extended period of time (several seasons) permadraws of some sort will re-appear.

i'd recommend planting stories in the press, probably one a week with occasional weekend clusterfucks about climbing deaths and bodily destruction. above the fold type stuff, not the drunk college kid stumbling off a cliff.

climb2core wrote:Trust me, people are far more ignorant about it than you give them credit for. How many of those gumbies trying those cool routes with permadraws on it are bothering to feel the edge of the biner and visually inspect before they clip?

Education is needed.

Unless all the locals unite with the crew and strip all gear, every time, for an extended period of time (several seasons) permadraws of some sort will re-appear.

Why are you so worried about gumbies getting hurt? Seems to me like every time I pick up new gear or open a climbing book or go to a gym (something I am coming to abhor), there is something telling me that climbing is dangerous and I am climbing at my own risk. Are these gumbies also illiterate? If so, are we not better off if we let a few of them burn in a little hot? Doesn't this solve the overcrowding issues also? We weed out a few of the unthinking climbers bred in (insert name of gym from north of the Ohio) and we have a win-win. I say you leave the fixed ginsu biners in place and we can eventually open roadside back up.