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quickdraw wrote:I would have to agree with Driskell and Wolfman here on this one. It is our responsibility as experienced climbers to help newbies or the inexperienced. If you standby and let somebody get hurt, that just means they are inexperienced and now you are the Gumby. You should always climb safe and try to help others do the same. That makes for a good day at the crag.

So is it our responsibility to make sure everyone wears there seat belt. And let me ask you this, Two gumbys show up to a cliff; break out a how to climb book and shiny new gear and go at it. Then Peter Croft walks up and starts to solo 5.12. Who is taking more risk? Who is being safer? You see Peter is taking more risk; but his is, of course, carefully calculated. Where as the newbies are taking a risk that they don't know of. I am sure that you take risk everyday in climbing that I could lecture you over that you had no idea you were even taking. If people want instruction they will find it. Unfortunately I have found that saying something just gives mine line of work a bad name. Rarely do people thank you for helping them out.

Though I did inform some people about the no dog rule at Muir today as if the signs weren’t enough. Hope I'm not an A-hole.

quickdraw wrote:I would have to agree with Driskell and Wolfman here on this one. It is our responsibility as experienced climbers to help newbies or the inexperienced. If you standby and let somebody get hurt, that just means they are inexperienced and now you are the Gumby. You should always climb safe and try to help others do the same. That makes for a good day at the crag.

i disagree, to an extent. if i take new climbers out who don't know what they're doing, i definitely feel responsible to help them. however, when i'm out climbing, i assume that other climbers should know what they are doing, and be safe about it. if not, they should not be out climbing. i don't feel that it should be inherent that experienced climbers are "responsible" for gumbys. i think it's a nice gesture, but should not be considered an obligation, particularly if people are going to be sassy about the advice they are given.

So tell me what you think about this story;

I am guiding at Looking Glass in NC. I am teaching a small group when a gentleman comes and sets up a route next to me. He is belaying off a boulder that he has girth hitched with webbing with an ATC. The boulder is the size of a small refrigerator. He is getting ready to belay his son's girlfriend who is around 16 yrs old. She is tied into a harness that is put on inverted so that where she has tied in is not weight bearing. She is also not doubled back. She gets ready to climb.... I say some thing. I tried in the best manner possible to say something. The man replied that I didn't know what I was talking about and that she should go ahead and climb. So I looked at the girl and said that if she climbs there was a very high possibility of her to get very hurt and that she shouldn't climb. The dad of course goes off. Yelling, cussing at me for about an hour as he took down his set up and left. So as it would seem I did that girl a favor; but it was at a cost.
The man called my boss and was threatening to go to the papers and blah, blah, blah. So I got in trouble and whatever. Was this worth it? My assistant guide that was there saw everything and confirmed with the man that I was correct. My assistant even explained to the man that his ground anchor wasn't very good. He yelled at him too. After they left I moved the rock in the direction of pull to where the anchor would have come off with very little force.

What do you all think?

oh yea; great post!

were you a dick?? yes, in that person's eye. to me, you did the right thing. i've had to do it with a buddy and his new girlfriend who had just started to trust him enough to try climbing. she wasn't doubled back and i saw it when she was about ten feet up. calmly said come back down and got under her in case. it sucked but the other suck would have sucked more.

i guess

sucks<really>being an asshole<being a huge cockface

Meadows wrote: I am not morally or legally responsible for individuals who chose an activity in which they are not skilled in doing.

Amen. I usually ask my climbing partners something like "Hey, how about we get the fuck out of here before someone dies?"

Josephine wrote:you're at the crag and a group of Very Inexperienced Climbers comes along to climb next to you and you notice them doing one of the following:

- top-roping through the chains
- belaying a leader w/gri gri and opening the handle to pay out slack
- going to set up a TR for a friend and about to remove all the directionals on an overhanging sport route
- yelling "take" when they're 10 feet above their bolt on an overhanging route
- bringing a dog to muir (or having it unleashed before 2008)

at what point do you say something and at what point do you just walk away and shake your head?

Just be nice to them and make them understand that you know something they want to know. Hit the most grievous sins in a subtext. If I see someone doing something extremely dangerous I'll flat out yell at them, but most of the time it just a matter of learning to be more safe. And gumbies rule. That is the best time to be a climber. I love gumbies.

so to those of you who feel no "moral" responsibility. do you ever post on here about "bad" bolts? or report them to team suck? if you do, somewhere in your mind you m ust feel a "moral" responsibility to the next climber.

It is not that I would want someone to get hurt; of course I don't. But people are out there for the adventure; and they don't like to be told things. Climbers in general, hate authority.

Apples vs. Oranges, Pigsteak. Being held responsible vs. acting on your apathy. Also, reporting bad bolts vs. policing crags.

considering that in general, the choice is 1) save myself the trouble/ annoyance of interacting with defensive know-it-alls 2) sharing knowledge and maybe serious injury... i think it's always better to err on the side of caution, or sacrificing ones own immediate social stability.

with a simple preface "i apologize for the unsolicited input, but someone once told me.."

.."wait, let me guess---to shut the fuck up?"

.....move on.