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I kept working on this response for over a week now and kept adding more and more to it. I was welding science and faith back together. I was explaining the validity of scripture. I was explaining how God didn't write the Bible. I was explaining translations and all kinds of stuff. I explained love, justice, works, and Grace. I even slightly opened up Calvinism. I will state again that I have never intended to convert anyone, that is all wrapped up in your own hearts between you and God. (I would be pretty arrogant to think I could make anyone believe anything just on the basis of my own thoughts and beliefs). I have also never intended to hurt or offend anyone here.

However, I really was trying to take up for Christianity and some of the assaults that were made here against the faith. However, none of that stuff matters.

This is the one thing that matters. It is the cross. It is where my sins were hung and it is where my redemption was allowed.

Grace is the point of the whole faith. Not grace in that you don't argue with your boss when they aggravate you because you were feeling nice. Grace in the sense that if I wrecked my brother's truck and I have it dropped at his doorstep instead of him pardoning me to pay for the damage he gives me a brand new truck, doesn't care that I hurt his, and in fact is happy that I came to him. He also decides to continue to pay for every new car or truck I ever need, and even the gas to run them.

This is the Grace that Christ bestowed on me at the moment I converted to Christianity. This is the Grace that is a free gift, no matter how many "bad" or "good" deeds I did none matter in the end because all it took was an acknowledgment of him as my savior and belief in my heart. He gave me a pass for the rest of my life (and eternally) not based on any work I ever did, no matter good or bad. Every time I denounced his name before I became a Christian only opened the doors to his saving Grace even wider. He gave me this free gift through his love for those that stand against him. Because he loved this world, and every sinner on it, he gave me this gift and required that I do no work to get it. God gave his life for me on the Cross and accepted all of my payment for my sins in place of me.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Please PM if you have any questions, comments, or even aggravations.

whatahutch wrote:I kept working on this response for over a week now and kept adding more and more to it. I was welding science and faith back together. I was explaining the validity of scripture. I was explaining how God didn't write the Bible. I was explaining translations and all kinds of stuff. I explained love, justice, works, and Grace. I even slightly opened up Calvinism. I will state again that I have never intended to convert anyone,

Cop out, language was invented to change the mind of the listener. You fully intend to change someone's mind regarding Christianity, otherwise don't say anything. I take it the welding of science, Calvinism and faith did not go so well.

whatahutch wrote: (I would be pretty arrogant to think I could make anyone believe anything just on the basis of my own thoughts and beliefs).

To hell with arrogance. Offer a good argument and let the argument stand for itself. If you could present a logical argument for your point I would be compelled. It is about the argument and how it fits into history, science, and everything else that we all deal with on a daily basis. Don't take this personally, nobody has a good argument for god and certainly not for the oddness that is Christianity. When I find a compelling argument for religion X I will convert.

whatahutch wrote: This is the one thing that matters. It is the cross. It is where my sins were hung and it is where my redemption was allowed.

uggg, this is disappointing. You do not need redeeming; there is no currency in the blood of anyone or anything. It makes no sense for a son to get nailed to the cross in your behalf because you are not meeting his dad's standards. If god the father thinks he needs to forgive you he would without Jesus getting crucified. Furthermore a million gods could get sacrificed for you without making any difference. The sacrifice concept in Christianity came from the old Hebrew religions. It is also found in many ancient religions. It is a primarily agrarian concept that our food stuffs have intrinsic value and unless we share this with god he won't make the sun shine.

whatahutch wrote: Grace is the point of the whole faith. Not grace in that you don't argue with your boss when they aggravate you because you were feeling nice. Grace in the sense that if I wrecked my brother's truck . . . .

Real grace would have been just forgiving you for whatever you did without having to cycle his son through the torture of crucification and then laying a guilt trip on you. I could fully accept the concept of god and still your version of the Christian argument makes no sense--no sense at all. It is utterly baffling. I used to wonder how people could believe in the Roman and Greek gods and all the silly stories that they had to explain what went on Mount Olympus. Modern religions are even more silly than those especially given the advances in philosophy and science.

I look on this thread occasionally to see how many pages it spews on for. Wow... 19. That must be approaching a record.
I think the length of a thread in a debate must be directly proportional to the uncertainty and insecurity of its defendants on either side of the issue being debated.

for a debate, check this out. This is Bill Ramsey, PhD (our own) vs some minister. This is only part 4 of many. I have not viewed them all but I am sure they are available to the search.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg2G6m5Audg

the lurkist wrote: I think the length of a thread in a debate must be directly proportional to the uncertainty and insecurity of its defendants on either side of the issue being debated.

Do you really think that this is a defensible position? The more one says the less secure they are and the people who are rock solid don't contribute? I would love to read something new regarding worship, religion, spirituality etc. I'll check out Bill's stuff.

whatahutch wrote: This is the one thing that matters. It is the cross. It is where my sins were hung and it is where my redemption was allowed.

Grace is the point of the whole faith.

This is the Grace that Christ bestowed on me at the moment I converted to Christianity. This is the Grace that is a free gift, no matter how many "bad" or "good" deeds I did none matter in the end because all it took was an acknowledgment of him as my savior and belief in my heart. He gave me a pass for the rest of my life (and eternally) not based on any work I ever did, no matter good or bad. Every time I denounced his name before I became a Christian only opened the doors to his saving Grace even wider. He gave me this free gift through his love for those that stand against him. Because he loved this world, and every sinner on it, he gave me this gift and required that I do no work to get it.

I'll try to be gentle because you have poured your heart out here. Ummm... this sounds like the opposite of morality. It sounds like a violation against the most basic rules of humanity that we have set up for each other. I am glad every day that we do not actually live by these rules. I'm glad that we try to punish the wicked and reward the good. The golden rule should be the foundation of morality rather than something like this.

I think I'm misunderstanding you. Please clarify

the lurkist wrote: for a debate, check this out. This is Bill Ramsey, PhD (our own) vs some minister. This is only part 4 of many. I have not viewed them all but I am sure they are available to the search.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg2G6m5Audg

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSpiritOfTheLord

All 15 (15!) parts are at this link. They are displayed in reverse order on the page so scroll to the last one ATHEISM vs THEISM, which will be part 1.

caribe wrote: Do you really think that this is a defensible position?

I don't.

Just couldn't let him have the last word, huh Art?

Caribe sent me a PM asking for the link that started this mess since the link on page #1 is dead. Here is a similar link: http://www.torontosun.com/news/world/20 ... 62466.html

Basically the crazy "god hates fags" folks were at it again, this time trying to protest at the funeral of the 12 year old girl shot in Arizona.

I'd like to apologize to my RRC friends and to say publicly that I <3 Caribe.... Go Caribe Go!