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Rifle Mountain Park and the work of the Rifle Climbers Coalition have been mentioned here and on the Facebook page. This is not a good general example for Red River Gorge. Rifle Mountian Park is city owned and charges an entrance fee. The City also controls route development and limits the number of new climbs that can be developed in a year. The RCC reviews new route applications and recommends which ones get approved. This and maintenance of the climbing area at Rifle Mountain Park, including bolts and perma-draws, are a condition of access negotiated between climbers and the City as the owner.

In Red River Gorge on the other hand, no entrance fees are charged on either private land or Forest Service land. The general "ethic" if you want to call it that, is that bolts, draws, slings, etc. found on any climb are abandoned gear and, as such, should be treated as suspect. There is no threat of loss of access if climbers do not maintain this gear, thus bolt maintenanence has been left to the efforts of individuals, mainly developers, not the community. These line items being discussed are really just additional guidelines, not an ethic. If anything comes out of this discussion, additional guidelines cannot be a separate thing unto themselves. They should be fit into the framework of the overall Responsible Climbing Guidelines promoted by the community in the past.

captain static wrote:...The general "ethic" if you want to call it that, is that bolts, draws, slings, etc. found on any climb are abandoned gear and, as such, should be treated as suspect... These line items being discussed are really just additional guidelines, not an ethic. If anything comes out of this discussion, additional guidelines cannot be a separate thing unto themselves...

Finally... +1

eth·ic n.
a. A set of principles of right conduct.
b. A theory or a system of moral values:

You can call it ethics, guidelines, principles, best practice, mores, good ideas, or whatever you want. The idea is that it increased awareness (personal safety) and reduces the mank in the gorge.

Now, it seems that we are getting closer to some sort of consensus when even Russ seems ok with it. Bill, I never saw these whatever you call its any different than "don't TR through the chains" which is already in the Responsible Climbing Guide. Lastly, I do understand that there are significant differences between Rifle and the PMRP but there is still some value that can be taken from looking at their model. A group of people come together to provide a common sense approach to reduce the over used of f1xed gear and reduce a1uminum mank.

Bill, how would you propose these guidelines be disseminated and promoted?

climb2core wrote:...when even Russ seems ok with it.

Completely missed my point dude...

Debbie downer, lets not talk ethics anymore. Lets just go back to the good old fashioned argument. How has your hiking, err... Trad "climbing" been this fall?

climb2core wrote:Debbie downer, lets not talk ethics anymore. Lets just go back to the good old fashioned argument. How has your hiking, err... Trad "climbing" been this fall?

u didnt heed my suggestion and here we are a page later Ian...i can no longer be of service...

Really. It's time for this thread to die. Your passion is admirable Ian, the way you treat people who don't completely buy into your ideas is frankly embarising.
You have raised awareness. Is that not progress/an accomplishment?

Jeff, sorry that is how you feel. While I fully admit that I defended my position and challenged others, I tried to stay out of the trash talking and personal attacks that many others chose to engage in. As far as "raising awareness", this thread is really hardly even a beginning as the real world of climbing has very little to do with this site.

Shut the fuck up!