Fixed Gear

[pigsteak]

Ian while your goal seems admirable, you are missing the first and perhaps foremost reason it will not work...you do not understand the climber psyche...we like to feel like we are a "no rules brah" society of misfits, and any attempt at codifying behavior is doomed to fail.

my advice....just chalk it up to a lesson learned and move on.....keep your partners safe as best you can and dont worry about the masses.

[weber]

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[climb2core]

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Well said Rick. I wish I could be as to the point. Wise not to get involved.

[climb2core]

Ian while your goal seems admirable, you are missing the first and perhaps foremost reason it will not work...you do not understand the climber psyche...we like to feel like we are a "no rules brah" society of misfits, and any attempt at codifying behavior is doomed to fail.

my advice....just chalk it up to a lesson learned and move on.....keep your partners safe as best you can and don't worry about the masses.

Good point Kipp. It would be much easier join the "no rules brah" society and just work on my next project. It must be the social upbringing being Canadian that makes me actually care. In 17 pages, I have looked for a counter argument to the proposed ethics as to why we shouldn't adopt these ethics. So far, IMO, the only argument that held any water was don't tag project draws as it may imply some degree of safety. I appreciate that Kyle took time to thoughtfully weigh in.

Of course Dr. Bob weighed in and felt that he would have to close his property if such voluntary ethics were put in place. Looking at the KY Recreational Statute, I have a hard time swallowing that. We have a set of rules we follow at Muir Valley and in the NFS already. Torrent is unique in that is sees a very small volume of traffic and is difficult to project at unless you happen to have an open invite from Dr. Bob. I guess I would respond that if these voluntary ethics save someone's life someday, then not climbing at Torrent would be a small price to pay.

There really isn't much point to debate it. People will either choose to follow it or not. I have heard that "it will never work as we can't get everyone to follow it". I would contend that culture change is not instantaneous and that it takes time and a committed effort. Regarding the actual ethics... I could see narrowing it down to 4:

1.) Be responsible for the gear you climb on. Any left gear is considered abandoned. Do not assume it is safe.
2.) Do Not "donate" any new a1uminum gear to act as f1xed gear for any route. DO pull any mank gear as you encounter it.
3.) Limit fully equipped stee1 gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep.
4.) Promote education and awareness of these ethics in the community.

This removes the ethic about limiting time on project gear. In reality, that should be covered by an ethic of not donating a1uminum gear to act as f1xed gear. While you are projecting, you should be inspecting and replacing your own gear.

I view these 4 ethics as a "hypothesis". The way a hypothesis is strengthened is by challenging it, and being unable to provide evidence that it false, or incorrect. To that end, no one has yet to propose a specific reason why any one of these ethics would not improve safety for all of us. If you can provide as specific counter argument to why any of these would not improved safety, then please share.

Many have brought up "policing" and "rules" as if it was a bad thing. While what I proposed was neither, I would contend that that perhaps it is not such a bad thing. We don't have these "drawma" debates going on at Muir, Torrent, or on NFS. That is because we have a land manager that sets the rules.

But time to stop this nonsense on RRC.com Too much time wasted on empty words.

Hope you all had a Happy Thanksgiving,


Ian

[clif]

shall we cleanse the palate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqD_MnCKPq8

[climb2core]

By the way, I am just bringing up an unfinished discussion:

If the community wants to I am sure the RRGCC would entertain the idea of re-establishing the Climbing Advisory Council or some version thereof. I was a member of the council before I joined the BOD. The council dissolved due to lack of interest and commitment from both the council members and the community. The RRGCC maintains the records of guidelines established by concensus of this council. An abbreviated version of "Responsible Climbing" guideliness is in all of the Wolverine guidebooks (Thank you Ray and Dave Pegg for the donated space). This perhaps should to be our starting point, no need to re-invent the wheel, just some additional statements and tweaking. Here is the most recent (ca 2006) longer version of "Responsible Climbing" guidelines:

Red River Gorge
Responsible Climbing Guidelines

Be aware of your surroundings:
• Find out what the local rules and regulations are before climbing
• Intentionally disperse your activity by selecting more remote areas; avoid the most popular crags
• Limit your group size to no more than 4-6 climbers
• Know whose land you are climbing on and what rules govern the property
Camp and travel on durable surfaces:
• Follow established trails to reach the rock
• Where no trails exist, spread out on durable ground, such as rock or gravel to avoid creating new paths
• Choose a campsite at least 300' from water, trails, clifflines and rock shelters
• DO NOT CAMP UNDER ROCK SHELTERS OR AT THE BASE OF CLIMBS
Pack it in, PACK IT OUT!!!
• All food wastes, including fruit cores and peels, should be carried out (Even fruit can alter the food habits of local wildlife, encouraging their dependency on humans)
• Please pick up trash where you find it. Discarded tape and CIGARETTE BUTTS are unsightly, so bring a small plastic bag for your trash
Properly dispose of what you can't pack out:
• Use toilets where available
• If toilets aren't available, urinate away from vegetation, climbing routes, streams and trails
• Dispose of solid human waste in a "cathole" at least 200 feet away from trails, the bases of climbs, water sources, or campsites; carry your own trowel for this.
• Pack out your toilet paper in re-sealable plastic bags
Leave what you find:
• Avoid trampling the vegetation at bases of climbs and cliff lines
• Avoid disturbance to all living things on cliffs (plants, lizards, salamanders, snakes, pack rats, bats, or nesting birds
• Do not cut, prune or remove trees, shrubs, or vegetation to improve a climb
• Cliff bases and rock shelters have been the sites of occupation by humans for centuries. Do not dig or collect artifacts. Archaeological sites are protected by Federal law
Minimize use and impact of campfires:
• Fire rings and pits at the base of any cliff are UNACCEPTABLE. Campfires contaminate cultural resource sites. If you find one, dismantle it and scatter the rocks in a nearby creek
• Fire rings are unnecessary if a fire is required. Do not make new rings. Use existing rings if necessary
• Cook on a camp stove instead of a fire, it's quicker, easier, and less harmful
• If a fire is required, collect only downed and dead wood. DO NOT CUT DOWN LIVE TREES OR SAPLINGS. Collect only that which you will use. Scatter unused wood after you leave
• Make sure the fire is extinguished completely before you leave. Remember, only you can prevent forest fires
Minimize climbing impacts:
• Chipping or creating new holds is UNACCEPTABLE
• Use removable protection and natural anchors whenever possible
• Use slings when rappelling from trees instead of rapping with ropes directly around the tree trunk. Choose natural colors for slings if they must be left behind
• Minimize chalk use and clean chalk off where you climb.
• Keep dogs on a leash at ALL times
Climber safety:
• Get climbing instruction from qualified people
• Be meticulous in applying your technical skills
• If you see what you believe to be an unsafe practice, let the person know
• Remove loose rocks only when necessary for safety
• Do not top rope directly through anchors. Use your own gear to set up a top rope and then remove the gear when you are done
Climber conduct:
• Respect the intent of first ascentionists. Do not add bolts or bolt anchors to existing climbs
• Know and follow the rules and standards governing the development of new climbing routes
• Be courteous to others and maintain a low profile
• Remember you are in the forest, not a gym. Use earbuds instead of a boombox
• Resist trash talk and using expletives on failed attempts
• When you are finished climbing a route, remove your gear and your rope so another party can climb. It is discourteous to put or leave up ropes on multiple routes and leave them unattended
• Respect the efforts of others by staying off routes where red tags have been left on a project.

Dr. Bob's concern:

There is “trash” all over my cliff; what to do? There are draws that have been on the wall for years and bolts and hangers that have been there longer than that. Am I to be held responsible for the maintenance of this gear? When these questions are asked whom do you see as the ultimately responsible party. Be careful with your answer as this individual will be “legally” liable now and forever. As a property owner I have an adversity to risk and a desire to maintain the “value” of my property. I have seen the expense of a lawsuit that, ultimately, was dropped and have no desire to incur the same at any point in the future. The assurance that I cannot be successfully sued is not much reassurance as even an unsuccessful suit is expensive; I hunker down under the Kentucky Use Statute and hope that I never have to invoke it in my defense. Does the creation of a committee that “insures” the safety of “left gear/perma gear” create a duty on my part to comply, inspect, etc., will I have to look to this same body whenever I wish to change something; what if there is a bit of gear on the wall, is it abandoned or is it perma, how do I know, who do I talk to about this … if it is perma does someone certify its integrity? If it is left gear do I need to strip it? Do I ignore it? Once a rule is made on a subject it must always be deferred to. The least expensive option for the majority of land owners is to simply ban the activity that creates the potential liability. I think that personal responsibility for all one’s actions is the best course …

Shannon responding:

Bill…I too do NOT wish to re-invent anything. It seems, at least to me, that this is a natural “next step” in climbing moving from project draws, community draws to Infallible perma draws and may require more than a tweaking. But I could be wrong. And “yes” I would like to see the RGGCC reestablish the CAC if enough interest can be generated

Hugh…thanks for the taking the first steps of diffusing the situation and getting us moving in a constructive direction. I agree climber behavior is the issue but to change human behavior the new behavior has to be defined, then adequately communicated and then re-enforced either through positive and/or negative re-enforcement. It was my read that we had not “defined” the new behavior, specifically installing Infallible perma draws v. alum draws v. any draws at the Motherlode, so then we can communicate and start nudging climbers in that direction. Thus the call to meet and define by majority (not perfect) consensus what that behavior would look like.

Bob…I am sorry for you and other land owners who do have to endure the thoughtless and selfish acts of others. You are correct Rec Use Statues will not shield you from a lawsuit, you would still have to defend against it. I completely agree personal responsibility is always the best policy for all things climbing thus my reference to the Express Assumption of Risk doctrine. “No,” no climbing group trumps the land owners wishes or directions nor can it supersede or alleviate liability.

[clif]

are you agitating for legislative action on the Rec. Use statute or the reactivation of the CAC? And why didn't you say so 16 pages ago?

[bob]

1.) Be responsible for the gear you climb on. Any left gear is considered abandoned. Do not assume it is safe.
2.) Do Not "donate" any new aluminum gear to act as fixed gear for any route. DO pull any mank gear as you encounter it.
3.) Limit fully equipped stee1 gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep.
4.) Promote education and awareness of these ethics in the community
Suddenly there is sense. This I can live with and it makes sense.
Thank you,
Bob

[climb2core]

Glad that common ground could be found. That is assuming you were actually in agreement with the last revision of ethics and not Ray's Friday funday.

[der uber]

1.) Be responsible for the gear you climb on. Any left gear is considered abandoned. Do not assume it is safe.
2.) Do Not "donate" any new Wooden gear to act as COMPLETELY MANK gear for any route. DO pull any mank gear as you encounter it.
3.) Limit fully equipped stee1 gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep.
4.) Promote education and awareness of these ethics in the community
Suddenly there is sense. This I can live with and it makes sense.
Thank you,
Bob

Bob has a good sense of humor - thanks Bob!