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Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:53 pm
by dustonian
rjackson wrote:By the same logic, a lot of people are using SS glue-ins for route development. I am still using 5 piece bolts and hangers. Are the routes with glue-ins any safer than my routes? No.
Incorrect. Your zinc-plated bolts may be equally safe now, but just give 'em 10 or 15 years. I am all about the convenience of mechanical bolts, but developers around here should have made the switch to stainless gear (in any form) years ago. Fortunately there are a small handful of people trying to keep up with replacing all the rusted-out junk out there. Please donate to
http://www.teamsuckclimbing.com!
Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:58 pm
by rjackson
Ian, I'm done.
Nick is correct.
You are not going to be content until everyone drinks your Kool-Aid and agrees that you can save climbers from themselves.
Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:00 pm
by der uber
rjackson wrote:Ian, I'm done.
Nick is correct.
You are not going to be content until everyone drinks your Kool-Aid and agrees that you can save climbers from themselves.
yes it's just a matter of who can post the most. I gotta get some real work done now - we'll see ya!
Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:03 pm
by climb2core
rjackson wrote:Ian, I'm done.
Nick is correct.
You are not going to be content until everyone drinks your Kool-Aid and agrees that you can save climbers from themselves.
Please tell me specifically how these proposed ethics promote a false sense of safety:
-Be responsible for the gear you climb on. Do not assume it is safe.
-Do Not "donate" any aluminum gear to act as fixed gear for any route.
-Try to limit your project draws to about 30 days.
-Limit fully equipped steel gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep.
Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:04 pm
by clif
i mean this in the most helpful way possible-
you're nuts
Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:05 pm
by rjackson
Hey Dustin... My "hypothetical" poses worse case (SS) against best case (5-piece) and I still believe that if I sink a 5-piece under a roof in bullet rock and no one climbs on it then it will not need to be replaced before the heavily used SS placed in crappy rock that is constantly exposed to the elements. I do agree that if conditions are completely equal, the SS will last longer.
Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:11 pm
by dustonian
The roof or steepness of the placement is largely irrelevant in the Red, as many of the cliffs seep seasonally and the rock is full of salt and minerals, leading to rapid galvanic corrosion of non-stainless hardware at many of the crags. I have replaced countless heinous 5-piece bolts in the Red that have never seen a drop of rain, yet the heavily corroded hex head snapped with less than a quarter twist of the wrench. You are deluding yourself if you believe zinc-plated hardware is "just as good" as stainless steel.
Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:17 pm
by pigsteak
dustin in your estimate, what is the percentage of new bolts going in that are stainless versus non? from the developers I know, I am betting 90 percent non stainless is still the norm....and do tell, where do you find a consistent supplier of stainless at a reasonable price?
I have not even been to most of the new choco factory routes...are all of those stainless as that seems to be the latest development?
Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:22 pm
by dustonian
Unfortunately, you're right: still about 85-90% plated. This percentage holds true for the Choco stuff as well. I wonder if in 20-25 years the next generation will be proactive enough to keep up with the nearly exponential rate of new-routing in the Red? We have already fallen behind as it is.
ClimbTech will be making and distributing Waves soon. Jim Taylor is also rolling again with the twist bolts. In the meantime, Fixe distributes a good SS glue-in for $6.75, and I bet Kevin would cut a deal for bulk orders. The Triplex bolt is another option for SS expansion bolts, just loctite the nut:
http://www.fixehardware.com/shop/glue-in-bolts/
http://www.fixehardware.com/shop/fixe-bolts
Finally, I have heard rumors of a cheap 1/2" mechanical SS bolt from the guys at Action Fund. It is a wedge-sleeve combo style, so again loctite on the nut would be necessary for steep routes.
Re: Fixed Gear
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:30 pm
by shear
climb2core wrote:shear wrote:4.). Steel is safer. It wears 10 times slower. That means sharp edges will develop more slowly giving people more time to catch it. And the only reason I am proposing steel is because aluminum will go up in its place.
More time to catch it? More time than what? A sharp carabiner is a sharp carabiner, regardless of the "time" it took for it to get there. In fact, I'd say that catching a sharp steel carabiner might be LESS noticeable than an aluminum one. Steel isn't safer either...it's really as safe as aluminum in terms of what we as sport climbers are using it for. The only time you really prefer steel is if you need to lift a bus. You're trying to make way too many details in this neighborhood watch you've got going on.
Put 2 identical routes side by side together, equip one with aluminum and one with steel, and have them both see the same daily traffic for 5 years. How many sharp edges are going to develop in that time period on the aluminum vs the steel? Aluminum wears 10 x's faster, so it will develop 10 x's as many sharp edges. That is 10 x's as many sharp edges to catch, 10 x's the opportunity to fall on a sharp edge, and 10 x's as many biners to replace. And that is assuming the aluminum draws are the oval shaped that can wear up to 5 mm vs the I beam which can be sharp in as little as 2 mm. Even taking the safety out of it, it is just a better investment.
Now that being said, a sharp edge is a sharp edge regardless of the material. Of course we will still need to preach personal saftey and check your gear always as your first line of defense.
And you are absolutely correct that I am trying to set up a neighborhood watch. We have a threat that will kill someone in our community if we don't come together and start figuring out a better way. But it is not the police, it is your neighbor watching your back and you doing the same in return.
Who are you protecting though? Protecting yourself and your climbing partner should be the only priority. Are you also going to set up a bike helmet watch and a seatbelt watch? Put up steel where it's needed, leave everything else draw free, let people hang their own gear, try to send routes, take draws down. Remove gear that looks dangerous, strip routes that have mank gear, yell at retards doing dumb shit. You can't save the world. It sucks, but it's the truth.