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rjackson wrote:The current "ethic" is not the problem... Change for changes sake is not the solution.



And where and when does the coalition weigh in on its stance as the "land owner" in this exploration?

I also find it interesting that no where does anyone consider the issue of trad mank and how those that climb traditional routes deal with the situation. Perhaps a lesson can be learned from that micro-community?

In a nut shell, the problems with the current ethic as I see it:

1.) People don't take the time to become educated, the climb unaware of risk and and consequence.
Solution: Education and awareness campaign.

2.)Convenience is taking too much of a front seat to safety. Balance needs to be restored.
Solution: Come up with a plan that balances the reality of convenience with the necessity for safety.

I plan on chatting with the BOD to find out exactly where they do stand.

Lastly, for God's sake man... if you think you can offer some constructive advice that addresses the two above issues, by all means do share!!!!

4.). Steel is safer. It wears 10 times slower. That means sharp edges will develop more slowly giving people more time to catch it. And the only reason I am proposing steel is because aluminum will go up in its place.

More time to catch it? More time than what? A sharp carabiner is a sharp carabiner, regardless of the "time" it took for it to get there. In fact, I'd say that catching a sharp steel carabiner might be LESS noticeable than an aluminum one. Steel isn't safer either...it's really as safe as aluminum in terms of what we as sport climbers are using it for. The only time you really prefer steel is if you need to lift a bus. You're trying to make way too many details in this neighborhood watch you've got going on.

shear wrote:

4.). Steel is safer. It wears 10 times slower. That means sharp edges will develop more slowly giving people more time to catch it. And the only reason I am proposing steel is because aluminum will go up in its place.

More time to catch it? More time than what? A sharp carabiner is a sharp carabiner, regardless of the "time" it took for it to get there. In fact, I'd say that catching a sharp steel carabiner might be LESS noticeable than an aluminum one. Steel isn't safer either...it's really as safe as aluminum in terms of what we as sport climbers are using it for. The only time you really prefer steel is if you need to lift a bus. You're trying to make way too many details in this neighborhood watch you've got going on.

Put 2 identical routes side by side together, equip one with aluminum and one with steel, and have them both see the same daily traffic for 5 years. How many sharp edges are going to develop in that time period on the aluminum vs the steel? Aluminum wears 10 x's faster, so it will develop 10 x's as many sharp edges. That is 10 x's as many sharp edges to catch, 10 x's the opportunity to fall on a sharp edge, and 10 x's as many biners to replace. And that is assuming the aluminum draws are the oval shaped that can wear up to 5 mm vs the I beam which can be sharp in as little as 2 mm. Even taking the safety out of it, it is just a better investment.

Now that being said, a sharp edge is a sharp edge regardless of the material. Of course we will still need to preach personal saftey and check your gear always as your first line of defense.

And you are absolutely correct that I am trying to set up a neighborhood watch. We have a threat that will kill someone in our community if we don't come together and start figuring out a better way. But it is not the police, it is your neighbor watching your back and you doing the same in return.

does anyone have an STD they'd like to discuss?

clif wrote:does anyone have an STD they'd like to discuss?

Do you think I don't realize that I am being a pain in the ass? It is not unintentional. I believe that you would accept that it is a real problem that really does need to be addressed. The problem is, the solution isn't easy and people tend just do what they have always done. The Crew stirred up the pot last year, and shortly after people went right back to doing what they always have done.

Kyle offered some excellent arguments and advanced the discussion. Russ is sharing his views and brings something to the table. Shear helped out by intelligently proposing an argument that challenges the proposal. So, either find fault in what I am proposing, share what you think will help, or just STFU and get out of the way.

It has been said over and over and over on this thread... Education.

The only ethic is personal responsibility.

When you run across mank you remove it and/or replace it. You protect yourself and do the community a favor. You always inspect gear...

And I have no problem with aluminum. All my biner's are aluminum and when I leave a cleaning biner it's aluminum (and will no doubt be taken as booty before it wears through). That being said, if you want to "recommend" to people that they use steel, I have no problem with that. By the same logic, a lot of people are using SS glue-ins for route development. I am still using 5 piece bolts and hangers. Are the routes with glue-ins any safer than my routes? No. They will both need maintenance, they will both eventually wear out. And if my route is protected and climbed less than an exposed, heavily traveled glue in route, then it may be the SS that needs to be replaced first. I would much rather climb on new(er) aluminum draws than on worn steel permadraws... There is no hard and fast regulation that you can put in place. And as Kyle and so many others have pointed out, you will simply be creating a heightened false sense of security...

You seem to have an assumption that you will ultimately draft some essay that will serve as an official set of rules. No matter what feedback or criticism you receive, you will refute with hypotheticals, fuzzy math, or condescension. I submit that the only truth is that you need to be personally responsible for what you do out on the rock. If you or others want to go around and scout for climbs that have draws on them and take them down, that is your business.

for the record, the undertow wall is a very different place than before they took the draws down. the only routes that have sharp gear on them are the ones that were rehung by those opposed to taking the draws down. the wall is way less crowded and there is no issue with folks hanging and cleaning draws. i wish the entire wall remained with just the convenient cleaning gear.

der uber wrote:I submit that the only truth is that you need to be personally responsible for what you do out on the rock.

Amen.

No duber,
My assumption is that there is a better way than the way we are doing it. Education is important, but it is only half of the equation. Mank gear is a problem, period. It needs to be reduced, period. It is clear that you only care about yourself... I got it. Why don't you leave the conversation and get to another sic sesh at the gym.


Russ, do you believe that less mank gear in the Red is better?