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So I tried using bolts on the last crack climb I did, but they kept falling out. Are they supposed to cam into the crack somehow?? Also, how do you rack your bolts? I definitely think cracks are harder with bolts.

i'm sorry for being so dense....i like having the option of avoiding bolts.

BUT- if your argument is with individuals who call themselves 'trad' climbers and REFUSE to climb bolted climbs it won't matter if it's a crack or not. why wouldn't they just continue to suck at doing what they want?

.....good luck against the suck. please don't bolt cracks.

45percent wrote:So I tried using bolts on the last crack climb I did, but they kept falling out. Are they supposed to cam into the crack somehow?? Also, how do you rack your bolts? I definitely think cracks are harder with bolts.

Dude, you should work on your bolt placements. If you were strong, you'd just pound em in by hand. This rock is just soft choss anyway.

clif wrote:if your argument is with individuals who call themselves 'trad' climbers and REFUSE to climb bolted climbs it won't matter if it's a crack or not

It's all right to clip bolts if they've been placed with the proper 'trad' ethic: on lead, drunk and/or high, while the belayer is on an acid trip.

512OW wrote:Dude, you should work on your bolt placements. If you were strong, you'd just pound em in by hand. This rock is just soft choss anyway.

Ohhhhhhh, that makes more sense. And the glue that came with the bolts, I assume I spread that over the rock to hold the choss in place?? The curing time is right if I can reach my goal of one route per weekend.

While I tend to agree with OW's premise here, I have a question. In describing the crux of his Tombstone project, Dean Potter said it was the insecurity of climbing so far over such a small piece of gear (paraphrasing). Knowing this, would the crux be more or less difficult if that piece of gear was a bolt? Also, say it was less difficult, would that denote an immediate downgrade if the climb was bolted? How about snotrocket? Would snotrocket be immediately downgraded if it was bolted? Just curious.

Izzy wrote:While I tend to agree with OW's premise here, I have a question. In describing the crux of his Tombstone project, Dean Potter said it was the insecurity of climbing so far over such a small piece of gear (paraphrasing). Knowing this, would the crux be more or less difficult if that piece of gear was a bolt? Also, say it was less difficult, would that denote an immediate downgrade if the climb was bolted? How about snotrocket? Would snotrocket be immediately downgraded if it was bolted? Just curious.

Well, since the 2nd ascender of that route, Epitaph, placed gear all the way through the crux, AND downrated the route, your question becomes null and void... just like trad climbing.

In all seriousness, to answer your question, Izzy, the difficulty of placing the gear should be factored into the rating, and I've never encountered a situation where it isn't. If its fear we're talking about, that is too subjective, and just isn't part of the equation when deciding what the YDS grade is. The PG, R, and X ratings are reserved for that. Some people get scared on Roadside Attraction, but that doesn't make it harder than 5.7.

So... if placing tricky gear on "Snotrocket" is factored into the difficulty, then bolts would indeed change the grade. If the difficulty lies in the climbing, as with most trad climbs, then no, bolts would not change it. For 98% or more of routes in the Red, bolts would not change the grade.

Well said, and that's why I brought it up. However I still wonder about snotrocket, if there was easy gear through the crux would that also be downgraded?

Sorry, your second reply answered my question. I definitely agree with the" 98%" of the time comment, but when an experienced climber says that the crux is the gear placement, that would be the other 2%, and it's the valid part of the opposing argument.

512OW wrote:

sharon9999 wrote:Do you need a hug??

No my dear, I just need to rid the world of whiners.

i heard ann coulter had her jaw bolted shut