RRC Archives

Pigsteak, really it just a matter of definitions, I'm on your side of the fence, but, come on....where does it mention in the penal code that it is ILLEGAL to climb someone else's red-tagged route. I can imagine that one playing out on Law and Order, "your honor, I as prosecutor representing the fine people of Wolfe county demand you give this girl 5 to 10 for ILLEGAL route climbing." The other items you metion are certainly illegal, but while we're on the subject, the ETHICS of charging $15-18/album is certainly questionable and surely is the root cause behind widespread pirating of music.

DuppyC, It's not a matter of court of law, it's a matter of ethics. This is a tight knit community and integrity counts. If you didn't pay for it, if you didn't put in the time and labor, IT IS NOT YOURS.

Meadows, I did pay and it's still not mine, it's everyone's. And everyone's responsibility to make sure people are getting told to do the right thing, etc... I'm pretty new to climbing, fall of '04 was the first time I roped up, but, in that time I've learned a few things and even I know that climbing red-tagged routes is NOT one of the biggest threats to the tight-knit community and its access to all the great places available at the Red. In fact, I'd say it's non-existent on the grand scheme of the access issues. Again, what's ethical for some is not known, or ethical, to others and I was trying to point out that the better way to do things is nip it in the bud at the source, not shout out to the forum in general hoping it falls on the right ears. I'd think someone getting caught climbing a red-tagged route ought to be ready for a beat down, unless they thought red meant rad or something along them lines.

Redpoint, thanks for that perspective, I do appreciate it.

I don't mean the line is not yours to climb, the FA is not yours. Since you're new, that means "First Ascent." The FA rightfully belongs to the person who did all the effort to equip that route. His/her name belongs on it, unless the bolter opens it.

Access to cliffs is a huge issue, but it is a different issue. We're talking ethics here and hopefully you are now informed.

Meadows, thanks, but, like I've said I have learned a few things, notice my use of the "FA" term in my original post. But, yah, thanks.

But, 3438 posts in 3 years, I'd better pay attention

duppy...don't even get me going on that line of thinking..if your reasoning held up, then it would be justifiable to steal gas since $3.00 a gallon is robbery.

you don't like the price of an album, don't buy it, and don't steal it (if you want to be ethical)...for me, I have situational ethics, and I am open about it.

I steal (download) music that isn't mine, I take soda into the movie theater, I get a water cup and put tea in it at a fast food joint, and a host of other things that are stealing and wrong. Shoot, I even know people who enter running races, and don't pay the fee. I don't justify my behavior, but just try to be honest that I do engage in illegal and unethical behavior.

But I would never knowingly steal a route. That is just my personal situational ethics at play.

charlie wrote:Just for a little clarification.....

• A redtagged route is off limits. Period.
  
  One more time, a tagged route is off limits. If you didn't scope it, clean it, or bolt it, and don't have permission from the person that did then you are a common thief.

This is the common consensus, for climbers all over the world, ever since I've been climbing, which started a little before 2004.

And for furthur clarification, redtagged routes are generally routes that have been equipped, but not yet sent by the one who did all the work. Maybe it's not the biggest threat to your climbing access, but it's a threat to the massive amounts of good hearted people that build trails, scrub walls, and spend money on bolts and hangers.

I've been able to enjoy so many routes simply because of these people I'd be careful to respect their generosity, and would hope everyone else felt the same.

Pigsteak, we've actually have alot in common, I was going to mention the gas(which we actually still get a decent deal on comparitevly speaking worldwide) and have not bought a new album in a loooong time, but, the MP3 player is fairly well supplied. I am also a situational ethics type of guy that happens to agree with all the ethics of the original poster, with the exception that he was non-confrontational at the site of violation. I do own the guide book, I think there is over 1300 described routes, great guide book, and I challenge whomever knows this sort of thing to tell this forum topic exactly how many FA's have been credited to thieving climbers...is there really any? I don't think most would want credit for that sort of thing. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it, does it make any sound at all?

The running race thing, isn't that just Gorilla racing?

Yes, it does matter when a tree falls with no one around.

Who you are when no one is looking.....etc.

I am off to Scotland next week, and the relatives there say gas is going to cost us close to $6 per gallon...can't wait.

DuppyC wrote:......If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it, does it make any sound at all?

People heard this tree fall and that's why we have this thread. Feign ethics while posturing complicity if you want, but your ignorance shows.