warning: big group at pebble and pistol this weekend
It might be difficult to follow, but the University's clubs are usually not for profit, therefore do not fall under those FS laws. Eventhough University's are of course for profit.
I jumped through all the hoops to run our guide service years back. Talked to Rita many times to make sure we were doing everything right. I even asked about all the University groups because they do seem to have more impact.
I jumped through all the hoops to run our guide service years back. Talked to Rita many times to make sure we were doing everything right. I even asked about all the University groups because they do seem to have more impact.
Learn to swim
I feel compelled to speak:
I am an instructor at a University. I will also be leading a group this weekend. According to current regulations, a permit is not required for university groups, but as the chair of the safety and ethics commitee of the CAC, I would like to see certain guidelines apply for all large groups, no matter university class or just a big group that gets together at miguels the night before.
I, for example, cover ethical considerations for climbing in my Basic Rock class. We talk about impact of all sorts as well as LNT concerns. I have a class of 15 which I have split into two. I will bring 7 students this weekend and 8 the following. This keeps my total group size under 10, which is the typical regulation for designated wilderness use. However, climbing impacts at crags are more severe than that, so I make it a point to talk about impact while at the crag and TEACH how to avoid such impacts (such as spreading out, not trampling vegetation, not wearing heavy boots, brushing off chalk, picking up all trash).
The areas that large groups of beginners typically congregate are prime examples of what we want to avoid, and so they make an excellent teaching area while conversely causing even more impact. It is quite hypocritical, and so I won't be going to any popular crag. Sure, I want them all to climb a three star route for their first outdoor experience, but I would rather practice what I preach and thus alleviate impact and avoid crowds at the already over-loved crags.
I am introducing new people to climbing. I want to set the bar high, not just provide them with a recreational experience. I will facilitate discussion about these concerns, generating student thoughts and hopefully instilling in them the desire to be responsible climbers.
The CAC (i'm to blame) has not moved forward with discussions on this matter, so these are only MY current personal policies when it comes to large groups and my classes. I hope to begin work on these guidelines with the rest of the safety and ethics commitee as soon as the semester is over and my work load shifts momentarily into a lower gear. At that point, I will ask for you, the climbers i was elected to represent, for your input!!!
Jason Burton
I am an instructor at a University. I will also be leading a group this weekend. According to current regulations, a permit is not required for university groups, but as the chair of the safety and ethics commitee of the CAC, I would like to see certain guidelines apply for all large groups, no matter university class or just a big group that gets together at miguels the night before.
I, for example, cover ethical considerations for climbing in my Basic Rock class. We talk about impact of all sorts as well as LNT concerns. I have a class of 15 which I have split into two. I will bring 7 students this weekend and 8 the following. This keeps my total group size under 10, which is the typical regulation for designated wilderness use. However, climbing impacts at crags are more severe than that, so I make it a point to talk about impact while at the crag and TEACH how to avoid such impacts (such as spreading out, not trampling vegetation, not wearing heavy boots, brushing off chalk, picking up all trash).
The areas that large groups of beginners typically congregate are prime examples of what we want to avoid, and so they make an excellent teaching area while conversely causing even more impact. It is quite hypocritical, and so I won't be going to any popular crag. Sure, I want them all to climb a three star route for their first outdoor experience, but I would rather practice what I preach and thus alleviate impact and avoid crowds at the already over-loved crags.
I am introducing new people to climbing. I want to set the bar high, not just provide them with a recreational experience. I will facilitate discussion about these concerns, generating student thoughts and hopefully instilling in them the desire to be responsible climbers.
The CAC (i'm to blame) has not moved forward with discussions on this matter, so these are only MY current personal policies when it comes to large groups and my classes. I hope to begin work on these guidelines with the rest of the safety and ethics commitee as soon as the semester is over and my work load shifts momentarily into a lower gear. At that point, I will ask for you, the climbers i was elected to represent, for your input!!!
Jason Burton
Last edited by JB on Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[size=75]i may be weak, but i have bad technique[/size]
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Guest
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Guest
Yes, but obviously I am doubting you. It doesn't make sense to me that they state what they do in their regulations but that school groups are excluded from regulations which apply to everyone else.bberlier wrote:Sandy, can't you listen to what we are saying?
Last edited by Guest on Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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captain static
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Without getting into the legal details, there may be a difference in requirements for a permit depending on whether or not the climbing club is charging a fee for the climbing class. I have experience with this subject regarding whitewater rafting trips conducted by a university outing club. Since no fee was charged for these trips, a non-commercial guiding permit was not required.
Although it is "gracious" to provide a heads-up, I believe that Earlham has an obligation to "do the right thing". If they are intent on having this class in RRG they should break-up their large group into smaller groups going to different areas. Better yet, hold the class somewhere other than RRG.
Although it is "gracious" to provide a heads-up, I believe that Earlham has an obligation to "do the right thing". If they are intent on having this class in RRG they should break-up their large group into smaller groups going to different areas. Better yet, hold the class somewhere other than RRG.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
I didn't think I could have stated it any clearer. Yet you still doubt.
Rita of the FS, I think she knows the laws.I jumped through all the hoops to run our guide service years back. Talked to Rita many times to make sure we were doing everything right. I even asked about all the University groups because they do seem to have more impact.
Learn to swim