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There is nothing wrong with mixed routes, if you dont have the gear or like the way it was done by the fa, then dont climb it.

ok, folks try this one on for size..a few years back, a certain gentleman from st louis decided that any route he could lead on gear (at jackson falls) was then a target for him pulling the bolts. this certain person was quite exceptional at trad climibng (with an ego to go with it). some of the lines that he chopped were originally completely bolted by the first ascentionist (or had been retro bolted with permission of the first dude), even when gear could be found. the origianlt equipper wanted bolted lines, period. the st louis transgressor even admitted that at times his gear placements "wandered", but that was part of the game to him. so he started removing bolts anywhere nat pro was to be had...

thus begs the question....since the first person wanted a sport route, do we heed to their desire for a sport route, even if good gear is to be had? or did this late comer have the right to chop the bolts?

pigsteak, Your question implies that there are rules to this game of rock climbing.....brah...there are no rules. Now I am sure someone will say, "no there are not rules but there are ethics".

Rhunt you are exactly right. Some "badass" needed to step up to the plate and put this "badass climber" in his place. A. Lincoln "Might makes right!"

Creep Show was once a mixed route. A, bomber, fixed stopper was the only trad piece but could have easily taken a cam or other. I felt the stopper added a little thrill to the route. Even if it blew you would have still had a clean fall. I enjoyed it as it was and felt a little bummed the last time I went to climb it. It's been retro-bolted. Jimmy and Spike Go Craggin' is a short but fun mixed route that only needs one natural piece. Leave it as it is - for what it's worth.

A code of ethics: established by a self-created group, promising to represent independent individuals, who will establish a list of do(s) and don’t(s) with no authority or means of enforcement.

And once the rules are established, each small group of climbers will decide which rules apply, modify some and discard the rest.

They will climb holding each individual within their group accountable to their own modified version of ethics. Those who agree with their interpretation join their group, those who don’t, leave, move on to another group or start their own group.

Funny, this is beginning to sound like religion.

rhunt wrote:Yeah 'face up to that crack' is a great example of a climb that should have stayed a sport climb. I wonder how many gumbies got injuried after standing around all day waiting to get on 'mr bungle' then finally deciding to get on 'face up to that crack'(without any knowledge of placing gear) and falling before getting to the ledge?

I think the climb is a run out sport climb. And as far as I can remember, if you fall beforeyou get to the ledge, the fall is no different from any other sport climb in the red. As soon as you get your hands on the ledge is when you would want to clip a bolt to pull the next moves...but then again, it is a ledge.

Routes should be left as the F/A was done. Pulling Pockets is the classic example that got dumbed down by gumbies. It took two pieces of gear and ends on Syncronicity. The current retro bolted route is not the same quality as the original and is basically a different route (ends at a different anchor). Sandy renamed it Pulling Matt's Penis. She can't wait to do it.

If you want to run shit out for a little thrill then start skipping bolts. Me, I want a route well thought out and SAFE. If I wanted to fall I would've bought a bungee cord.
Tell me how you would feel if someone was injured or worse because of your bad bolting job. COUNT THE COST!!! a little thrill for you while on lead versus...........um let's see....................... FUCKING DEAD!!!

You guys need to brighten up. There's a little bit of difference between a stretch for a bolt (10-15 ft)and a Ground Fall Potential. I don't get on your dumb-ass R,X routes. I plan on climbing for the rest of my long life.

Spoonman wrote:Routes should be left as the F/A was done. Pulling Pockets is the classic example that got dumbed down by gumbies. It took two pieces of gear and ends on Syncronicity. The current retro bolted route is not the same quality as the original and is basically a different route (ends at a different anchor). Sandy renamed it Pulling Matt's Penis. She can't wait to do it.

amen, Spoonman.

And yes, it's true - I'm working on Pulling Matt's Penis. It's not as hard as I thought it should be, though, so I fear that getting it will leave me unsatisfied.