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If you know about bad gear, fix it. If you know about bad gear and you left it, it's on your conscious. (I don't really think you want to me to "explain" bad gear.)

And by the way.. It is the minority that is developing, it is the minority that is fixing anchors, it is the minority that is fixing bad bolts, it is the minority that pretty much allows "you" to climb outside.

tania wrote:I am beginning to feel a bit embarrassed to tell people that teh Red is my home crag.

Tania, ethics debates have been going on around the world since climbing began. Perhaps consider being glad that people are trying to communicate and come up with a plan based upon compromise and debate and not chopping bolts or taking draws down in the middle of the night.

rjackson wrote:If you know about bad gear, fix it. If you know about bad gear and you left it, it's on your conscious. (I don't really think you want to me to "explain" bad gear.)

And by the way.. It is the minority that is developing, it is the minority that is fixing anchors, it is the minority that is fixing bad bolts, it is the minority that pretty much allows "you" to climb outside.

You know that I have always been very appreciative of anyone that donates their time and or money to developing. But don't go out there doing expecting special thanks... no one is making you do it. Do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want to. Sorry, but there is no "I am a developer" special rank card when it comes to developing ethics for fixed gear.

Personal responsibility is the only piece that everyone can agree on. That is why it should be the only real ethic. If you want to make the personal responsibility of every gumby that walks up to the crag your own responsibility then go for it, I nominate you to be the official honorary deputy sheriff of all that is the red river gorge, endorsed by no one yet seen by all. Just because I know cpr doesn't mean I HAVE to try and save someones life with it, but if I try to save someones life with cpr, I legally HAVE to see it through to the end or get sued for it. You must understand that this title bestowed upon you has a particular set of language implying that YOU will be the one to sue when the initiative is not followed through.

Seriously though, I think that the ethic is already changing. I see substantially fewer sun bleached project draws than I did a few years ago. I am fine with encouraging people to not leave up their aluminum for extended periods of time, spreading the word about dangerous draws, and increasing awareness so that ones own set of personal responsibility mores makes them better suited to make safer decisions.

No one expects thanks, or support for that matter.

I simply support the established ethic of personal responsibility. See the forrest for the trees...

krampus wrote: Seriously though, I think that the ethic is already changing. I see substantially fewer sun bleached project draws than I did a few years ago. I am fine with encouraging people to not leave up their aluminum for extended periods of time, spreading the word about dangerous draws, and increasing awareness so that ones own set of personal responsibility mores makes them better suited to make safer decisions.

I think that's the right way to go about it, but I also see a simple tagging of project draws with a date and number an extension of this (I know, people seem livid at the mere suggestion and act like it's implementing the climbing police, but it's really just a simple courtesy). For example, me and a friend did a long hike on the north south trail through LBL this summer and stashed some plastic water jugs at trail crossings before we started so we could move a little lighter and faster. We put a "safe to throw away by" date on the jugs so that if we missed one (and I think we did due to a detour around a closed portion of trail), someone could later throw it away without worrying about removing supplies someone might need.

A simple date on the draw would mean that proactive, "personally responsible", people could remove old draws without worrying about messing with someones project and a number would mean any decent draws left would find their way back to the owner.

climb2core wrote:Glad your opinion appears to be in the minority.

not sure what justification you are using to make such a claim. this thread would indicate otherwise, at least. you also keep saying that fixed gear is here to stay. well, by definition i suppose so, but again, why are you so insistent?

Clif, you are hearing the few vocal antagonists. Trust me, much more support for trying to address the issue more proactively. And as far as what Krampus said... that is pretty much exactly what we are trying to do.

The initial proposal was to:
-Not "donate" any aluminum gear to act as fixed gear for any route.
-Limit your project draws to 30 days. Date your bottom draw to let people know you intend to project the route and want to reclaim your draws.
-Limit fully equipped steel gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep


I am actively trying to limit the amount mank or fixed gear that goes up in the Red and increase awareness and self responsibility.

trust but verify i guess. i don't read the mags nor visit other climbing sites that much, but if this is what the gyms are talking about then i'm with you 100%.