Yes, I could certainly climb the hardest sport route I've done on trad gear
so I repeat, trad is no more difficult than sport.
We all love hearing what a great climber you are but you’re issuing a blanket statement to an entire climbing community with a diverse set of skills and strengths. If trad isn’t harder for you, then it isn’t harder, FOR YOU.
You may as well be telling short people that reachy routes are not really any more difficult you just suck at it or aren’t trying hard enough. The same for a heavy person on overhanging routes, an inflexible person on high-stepping slabs, or a person with fat fingers on a thin crack.
If a climbing style is more difficult for someone then it is FOR THEM because it doesn’t play to their strengths.
I'm amazed at the number of people in the poll that think toproping is a little more diffiuclt than climbing bolts. But they are right, if it's harder for them then it's harder FOR THEM.
In all cases you mentioned, 5.10 is still 5.10, regardless of how it feels for you. Things are graded on a general basis... assuming everyone has the requisite skills. If you lack the skill.... it doesn't make the route a harder grade... just harder for you. Thats my point. It has to be a blanket statement, or every route will carry 48937438094857345 different grades.
"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken."
-Tyler Durden
We are all trying to come to some sort of conclusion about a route. However, the routes don't change between climbs by each of us. Thinking of it this way, it's kind of dumb to give a route a grade at all. Really, we are grading ourselves when we assign a grade. Our vantage point is so relative that nitpicking about grades/types of climbing is at best silly, at worst, a complete waste of time. Disagreeing with an individual's perspective on a climb is dumb - you aren't that person, so you can't see it from their point of view.
That said: 5.10 = 5.10 = 5.10. It just feels different to each of us.
Untrue. Knowing that you suck on a 5.10 fingercrack lets you know what to work on. Otherwise, everyone at the gym would think they climb 5.12 just because their technique sucks. Climbs aren't graded on YOUR experience. They are (or should) be graded on the collective experience of several people qualified to climb that type of climb. So, arguing about grades is a way to help future ascentionists know their weaknesses, which for me, is a valuable tool.
"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken."
-Tyler Durden
512OW wrote:Untrue. Knowing that you suck on a 5.10 fingercrack lets you know what to work on. Otherwise, everyone at the gym would think they climb 5.12 just because their technique sucks. Climbs aren't graded on YOUR experience. They are (or should) be graded on the collective experience of several people qualified to climb that type of climb. So, arguing about grades is a way to help future ascentionists know their weaknesses, which for me, is a valuable tool.
You're basically right. I did overstate what I was trying to say. You used the key word: "collective experience." Grades are not determined (or at least shouldn't be) by one person, they are determined by the community.
To be honest, I think the reason that a lot of people in the Red who climb trad say it's "hard" is because some (not ALL) of the classic, easy trad climbs are slight to moderate sandbags. Combine a nice sandbagged 5.6 or 5.7 (or 5.8+) with a bit of inexperience, and you get a "OMG, trad is harder!" response. Plus, 90% of people who climb a route don't want to go against consensus.
Thats the thing I'm saying Peter.... they aren't sandbags. Most climbers nowadays lack those skills, because they can't learn them in gyms. In turn, they think they're being sandbagged. If gyms were all crack climbing based, all the sport climbs would seem sandbagged.
"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken."
-Tyler Durden
512OW wrote:Thats the thing I'm saying Peter.... they aren't sandbags. Most climbers nowadays lack those skills, because they can't learn them in gyms. In turn, they think they're being sandbagged. If gyms were all crack climbing based, all the sport climbs would seem sandbagged.
So are you saying it's impossible that there are old trad climbs in the Red that are sandbags? Or just that you don't think they are? Because a lot of people do think so. The guidebook even hints at that possibility in a few places. Do you think that grading standards have changed, even by as little as .5 - 1 number grade, in the last 30 years? However, even if they are sandbags, I agree 5.8 sport = 5.8 trad. I know I suck at climbing, and I don't make excuses about my 1 number grade difference between sport and trad because it's "harder".
512OW wrote:Thats the thing I'm saying Peter.... they aren't sandbags. Most climbers nowadays lack those skills, because they can't learn them in gyms. In turn, they think they're being sandbagged. If gyms were all crack climbing based, all the sport climbs would seem sandbagged.
So are you saying it's impossible that there are old trad climbs in the Red that are sandbags? Or just that you don't think they are? Because a lot of people do think so. The guidebook even hints at that possibility in a few places. Do you think that grading standards have changed, even by as little as .5 - 1 number grade, in the last 30 years? However, even if they are sandbags, I agree 5.8 sport = 5.8 trad. I know I suck at climbing, and I don't make excuses about my 1 number grade difference between sport and trad because it's "harder".
I'm not saying that its impossible. However, I've yet to come across a route under 5.9 that I'd consider a sandbag, and I'd guess that I've climbed more of those routes than 95% of the people who climb here. I can only think of 3 or 4 routes under 5.11 that I'd call sandbagged, and that may very well be a result of my inefficient technique, rather than a sandbagged grade.
No, I don't think grading standards have changed at all. I don't buy into the "old school" grades. Those are usually a result of the fact that new leaders lack the boldness of older leaders, and when people are scared, things seem harder. Otherwise, grades across the country have seemed right on to me, when compared to the areas and routes where the YDS was created.
"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken."
-Tyler Durden
