Fixed Gear

[lena_chita]

"If you are projecting a route and you would like to leave your draws up- write the date and your number on a tag on the first bolt draw- it is generally accepted that you can leave your draws up for x days (other people will use them) After x days have passed- people may take your draws down, but if you leave your number- they'll probably call you first (unless they're grumpy that day). This is to prevent sharp edges on worn-out aluminum draws from killing people.

I like the idea in principle.

Now, how do you get everyone to carry a sharpie and an approved-color yellow tape? Provide them on site, right next to the emergency tubes?

Seriously though, I think JR made the most important point: people who leave project draws are generally NOT gumbies. Have you tried walking in to Bruise Brothers or Great Wall and asking people if you could please quickly run up the route on their draws? Nah-uh, NO WAY!!!! Most new people wouldn't even walk away 100 feet from the route on which they have their gear hanging, let alone leave it there overnight. But I would bet most of the people posting in this thread have, at one point or another, left their draws hanging on some route, overnight, or for a few days, or for couple months, or for the ops-meant-to-get-on-it-last-season-but-got-injured-and-never-went-back long...

So it is not unreasonable to say that you CAN change the prevailing ethics, because you don't really need to have the "10s of 1000s" of people who come to the Red to agree to it and to change their behavior. You really only need a small fraction of people, many of whom ARE reading this thread, or would listen to people who are reading this thread, to change their actions. And many already have, IMO.

[der uber]

"If you are projecting a route and you would like to leave your draws up- write the date and your number on a tag on the first bolt draw- it is generally accepted that you can leave your draws up for x days (other people will use them) After x days have passed- people may take your draws down, but if you leave your number- they'll probably call you first (unless they're grumpy that day). This is to prevent sharp edges on worn-out aluminum draws from killing people.

I like the idea in principle.

Now, how do you get everyone to carry a sharpie and an approved-color yellow tape? Provide them on site, right next to the emergency tubes?

Seriously though, I think JR made the most important point: people who leave project draws are generally NOT gumbies. Have you tried walking in to Bruise Brothers or Great Wall and asking people if you could please quickly run up the route on their draws? Nah-uh, NO WAY!!!! Most new people wouldn't even walk away 100 feet from the route on which they have their gear hanging, let alone leave it there overnight. But I would bet most of the people posting in this thread have, at one point or another, left their draws hanging on some route, overnight, or for a few days, or for couple months, or for the ops-meant-to-get-on-it-last-season-but-got-injured-and-never-went-back long...

So it is not unreasonable to say that you CAN change the prevailing ethics, because you don't really need to have the "10s of 1000s" of people who come to the Red to agree to it and to change their behavior. You really only need a small fraction of people, many of whom ARE reading this thread, or would listen to people who are reading this thread, to change their actions. And many already have, IMO.

+1. This is a lot simpler than people are making it out to be. Inspect gear before you clip it, pull bad gear.

[dustonian]

This is a lot simpler than people are making it out to be. Inspect gear before you clip it, pull bad gear.

+ a million or 2

Personal responsibility is the only permanent solution.

[toad857]

This is a lot simpler than people are making it out to be. Inspect gear before you clip it, pull bad gear.

+ a million or 2

Yep.

8 pages into this thread is 7 pages too many.

[Crankmas]

Maybe they should put a gate up that you have to go through to get to the official desk and use the official pen on the approved paper to fill out the form per directive that you then affix to your first draw, what could go wrong, that will surely temper the ill will of gravity...

[kafish2]

I have never had much difficulty in checking the draws I am clipping. I have often swapped out a bad draw with a draw from my rack. If I do not feel like donating a draw (ie a route I probably will not return to soon) then I take down the offending draw. Seems pretty simple to me. I don't expect anyone else's gear to be good, that is why i give them a look, and I also do not expect anyone else to keep me safe (except the guy I let hold the other end of the rope). It all seems pretty simple and also places ownership of my actions squarely on my own shoulders.

The problem I see with any solution is that not only does it involve a more complicated process (education, implementation, sustained maintenence) but is also places to some degree the safety of the climber in the community's hands. There is an assumption that if there are draws hung, and especially if there is a tag, that the draws are abiding by the community standard and thus safe. Essentially saying that someone, other than the climber, has checked out these draws lately and deemed then OK.

No matter how this shakes down I will continue to check draws as I climb, but don't expect me to take down any draw that does not look/feel dangerous despite the material with which it is made or how long it may have been on the wall.

[Jeff]

Well said Kyle.

[dustonian]

You said it Kyle.

[Prog_Rocker]

I think the Climbers Coalition should form a draw management care committee to determine and then carry out the ethics and management of the fixed gear. It would be called the DrawMa Care Committee for short. Members of the DrawMa Care Committee would include representatives of professional climbers, sponsored climbers, and your regular and local sport climbers. Under DrawMa Care each sport climber would pay a fee that would support the work of the committee. To be fair the pro climbers would have to pay the highest fee, the sponsored climbers the next highest fee, and the regular sport climbers the lowest fee. Traditional climbers would be exempt from paying the fee. The fee would cover the costs for the liability insurance coverage the gear itself and the employees that would be needed to administer and implement DrawMa Care. With DrawMa Care the safest sport climbing experience would be guaranteed no matter what type of sport climber you are. If you didn't like DrawMa Care you could just climb at another sport climbing area other than the Red or just climb trad.

[MYDADPULLEDOUT]

This is a lot simpler than people are making it out to be. Inspect gear before you clip it, pull bad gear.

+ a million or 2

Yep.

8 pages into this thread is 7 pages too many.

O.k. I see how it is. You faggots use my idea and get credit for it. Why the didn't you fuckers listen to me three pages back?

If the climbing community became a group of semi-proactive people, and people would just check the draws before they climb on them, then people could change/remove sharp project draws. Simple as hell bitches.