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Wes wrote:

Brentucky wrote: The start of fuzzy looks pretty hard now, though it wasn't a stump, it was a big rock that used to be there.

You sure it wasn't a stump Wes? I remember a stump and Michelle does too.

Nope, pretty sure it was a big flat rock that came out at an angle. When the ground eroded enough, it just fell over. But, seeing as how it was all the past, I may not be 100% correct. But, still thinking it was a rock.

Didn't try it, but it might be 11+ or 12- from the ground now, no cheater rocks. I am thinking about bringing the drill and some rebar next time I am there, and creating the 5.11 version of the white man's start...

Andrew wrote:Why are we only talking about the 5.12 grade and the upper 5.11 grade.

There are tons of soft tens that need significant down grading.

You must bring in the 5.10 honest strugglers, you guys don't count! The only 10 I can remember right off hand that I thought was VERY easy for the grade was the 10d at Washboard Wall that goes WAAAAY up. However, in the case of a "riskier" type of climb such as that one I'm personally a fan of erring on the "voting it soft instead of hard" line of thinking. Even so that thing would still probably qualify as soft 10c.

Most of the time I think 10's are hard instead of soft though, as in the case of Oompa and Tong Shing. I'm scared of Tong Shing, and hell if I'm ever warming up on Oompa again!

heavyc wrote: ...there has to be some soft routes at every grade level...

Could you see this taken a step further? There has to be some hard routes at every grade and there are some routes that just seem right in the middle.

Should there be nearly equal number of harder routes for the grade as soft? Or is this splitting hairs.

What if we did downrate all the soft routes? The mediums would become the soft routes....Then we start over again.

What is up with all the 11b's at the RED?

Holy Shit Wes. Did you go 88 M.P.H in your DeLorean and snap a satellite photo? Awesome!

why is this thread still going on? I just read through it and everyone is mentioning a bunch of different routes that they think need to go up or down. shut up on the thread and get on the On-line guide and help make Ray's job easier by posting your opinions there. all of this arguing is embarrassing for the red. There are alot of routes in the red that need to go either up or down, just do it on the on-line guide and stop bitching about them on the forum. PS YOU SUCK RAY!

The online consensus for the 11 wall at Torrent is about right.

Brentucky wrote: VERY easy for the grade was the 10d at Washboard Wall that goes WAAAAY up. However, in the case of a "riskier" type of climb such as that one I'm personally a fan of erring on the "voting it soft instead of hard" line of thinking. Even so that thing would still probably qualify as soft 10c.

Most of the time I think 10's are hard instead of soft though, as in the case of Oompa and Tong Shing. I'm scared of Tong Shing, and hell if I'm ever warming up on Oompa again!

"Heard it on NPR", yea I agree its an awesome route but soft for the grade, the softest 10a I can think of is rat stew I've always though that was a middle of the grade 5.9.

Oompa felt closer to 10b to me and I think the votes for it agree.

The wisdom of crowds and the merits of democracy.

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/wis ... s/Q&A.html