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A popular route is a popular route, there is always the possibility of a line. If you were at the solarium, you could have walk ten feet in either direction and not waited in line or did those not have fixed gear? I refuse to wait in lines at the red, mainly because here are thousands of routs at the red, no one bitches about the crowds and heat more than me, but honestly I kinda liked the variety I experience from being forced by the hoards to climb the obscure. If I went to the solarium on any day outside of februrary, I might hope for SBF but I know good and darn well that I'll likely be settling for "so long mr. petey" or "urban voodoo", which still have three stars mind you.

pigsteak wrote:tradmike..my guess is you are over 30? bitterness comes with age my friend.

I am not bitter in the least. I just don't care to see trash at the cliffs and I place perma draws in that catagory.

vertical1 wrote:Thats right, take down all the chain steel permadraws so people can recycle their 10 yr old tattered sun bleached sharp edged aluminum draws to leave on projects in steep RRG climbs. Sounds much safer in my opinion.

If you maintain your gear and take them down when you leave you wouldn't have that problem. Trusting fixed gear is striving for a Darwin award. Again, if you are too weak to hang your own draws get on something you can climb.

lol..no worries tradmike..I am actually with you on this one, but we are barking up the wrong tree....sport climbing has been on a downward spiral for years with no end in sight. closer spaced bolts, stick clips, hang your own draws, redpointing, perma draws, cheater stones, tick marks..it has all soiled an activity that is no longer "sport" and now finds itself as sterile as a day at the golf course.

its not that I'm too weak to hang my own draws, its that I'm too weak to clean my draws off the steep stuff and I already suckered my partner with that trick once

krampus wrote:A popular route is a popular route, there is always the possibility of a line. If you were at the solarium, you could have walk ten feet in either direction and not waited in line or did those not have fixed gear? I refuse to wait in lines at the red, mainly because here are thousands of routs at the red, no one bitches about the crowds and heat more than me, but honestly I kinda liked the variety I experience from being forced by the hoards to climb the obscure. If I went to the solarium on any day outside of februrary, I might hope for SBF but I know good and darn well that I'll likely be settling for "so long mr. petey" or "urban voodoo", which still have three stars mind you.

The "line" was one guy that was on the route. I had been looking forward to jumping on that route and didn't expect to have to wait too long considering I was next up. I have already sent everything else on the wall except the 13. (lie, but sounds cool) I was actually surprised how empty the Solarium was on a holiday week end. The more I think about it, it is not the perma's that are the issue... it is the ethics and general lack of courtesy I seem to encounter more and more. I mean, wtf is the point in resting for 15 min on a ledge when you are not on a RP attempt and can only go bolt to bolt at best. I can deal with hang dogging, I have done it too. But I also am aware of people waiting and how much progress I am making.

Oh, and for the record cramps, I actually have no problems with hanging or cleaning my own draws.

C2C,
Why are you more entitled that any other climber? How many times have you hung all over a route trying to figure out moves? You need to relax and wait your turn or get on another line.

climb2core wrote: I have already sent everything else on the wall except the 13. (lie, but sounds cool)

Could be worse. You could be like me and have already climbed every route on the wall. Now I have nothing to climb there... so at least you have something to climb.

I've gotten my rope stuck on SBF and have seen others get their stuck. I even rescued someone's rope for them. If there's any route in the Red that needs permas it's SBF.

There's nothing "strong" or "weak" about project draws on a route. If someone is too "weak" to hang their own draws they can easily just stick clip them up. Just because it feels impossible to hang draws on a line doesn't mean you shouldn't be on it. It just means you haven't found the clipping stance, pinch, micro-crimp, thumb smear, etc yet.

TradMike, If you've never had to grab the stick clip to hang a draw or place a cam (I've done that) then it means you aren't pushing yourself hard enough. When you choose to take on a line that pushes you to the max you will barely be able to hang onto some holds or fingerlocks long enough to shove in pro or clip a draw. Plenty of hard trad lines were sent with some pre-placed pieces due to the difficulty of the placement. Do you ever watch climbing videos? Do you ever see Ondra hanging his draws when he sends 5.15?

Popular routes will always have pre-hung draws because people leave behind project draws. All of the hard lines I've sent had either someone else's draws or my own draws pre-hung when I did them. The arguments against perm-draws shouldn't involve comments about being "too weak to hang them" because pre-hanging will happen regardless on tough lines.

TradMike is a bad ass!! He's ben crushing 10a/b onsight for over 20 years!!! Don't f--- with him SCIN, he's got mad trad 'tude, etc etc etc. YAAAAAAAAWWWNNN.....someone's been reading back issues of Alpinist on the shitter a little too much IMO.