RRC Archives

hi climb to score. a good question and valid. any belay device in the hands of any belayer is only as good as that particular belayer that is operating it for the protection of the climber. however, in most cases if i'm going to error, i would rather error with an auto locking device like a cinch or gri-gri, than with an atc, trango jaws, or any of the other good quality belay plate (plaquette) devices out there.

I have both the gri-gri and cinch, and have used both for some time. I use the cinch all the time now, as i have found it more efficient (rope sizes differences), and is so easier to pay out when belaying a leader ( providing if one operates it correctly, which is the secert!) as well as how light it is. And since it is auto locking it gives you just a little bit more insurance in the event of some misfortune, i.e. rockfall, slip, unattentive, etc. And in the case of a rescue where you must ascend the rope to help or assist the climber (providing all bolts, hangers are sound and will support the additional weight of two persons on the rope), you're already set up and ready to go, and don't have to escape the belay, and then install a gri-gri or cinch or locking device to ascend the rope to assist. Just set up your prusik for a foot loop and ascend.

I saw the gri-gri-2 the other day for the first time. very nice and small and so much lighter like the cinch, as well it takes smaller size ropes (which are so popular now) like the cinch. i plan on trying out the gri-gri-2 in the very near future.

So many people (including me at one time), did not read and understand the precise operating instructions for the cinch, and how to operate it correctly for top efficiency and safety. Once i found that out, i didn't go back.

The secert in paying out rope smoothly to a climber is so simple it's misunderstood. A matter of holding the cinch in the right hand, with the hand clamped over the entire unit (ncluding the rope passing through), and at the moment to pay out rope, a simple matter of just rotating the Cinch a few inches with the wrist to easily pull out any amount of rope you need. so smooth and easy.

Recently, Trango came out with a good video on the correct operating procedure for the Cinch. It is a good one to take a look at, and understand how easily and simple correct operation of the Cinch can be. Pay careful attention how he operates the device, and then go through it a couple of times.

Then tie off a rope and practice, and get comfortable with it and it's operation.

I will attach a link below. I hope this helps you a little. Good Luck out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo (copy and past into your browser )

Bill

climb2core wrote:Hey Fuckwad,
NO SHIT. What a fucking useless answer.

Then why did you ask the useless question?

A bad belayer is a bad belayer. Period. Each device loads in it's own way, it feeds in it's own way. There are terrible grigri belayers, cinch belayers, figure 8 belayers. I'm not getting the point of your question...it sounds like you're looking for a device to save you from shitty belayers...

Bill Johnson wrote:hi climb to score. a good question and valid. any belay device in the hands of any belayer is only as good as that particular belayer that is operating it for the protection of the climber. however, in most cases if i'm going to error, i would rather error with an auto locking device like a cinch or gri-gri, than with an atc, trango jaws, or any of the other good quality belay plate (plaquette) devices out there.

I have both the gri-gri and cinch, and have used both for some time. I use the cinch all the time now, as i have found it more efficient (rope sizes differences), and is so easier to pay out when belaying a leader ( providing if one operates it correctly, which is the secert!) as well as how light it is. And since it is auto locking it gives you just a little bit more insurance in the event of some misfortune, i.e. rockfall, slip, unattentive, etc. And in the case of a rescue where you must ascend the rope to help or assist the climber (providing all bolts, hangers are sound and will support the additional weight of two persons on the rope), you're already set up and ready to go, and don't have to escape the belay, and then install a gri-gri or cinch or locking device to ascend the rope to assist. Just set up your prusik for a foot loop and ascend.

I saw the gri-gri-2 the other day for the first time. very nice and small and so much lighter like the cinch, as well it takes smaller size ropes (which are so popular now) like the cinch. i plan on trying out the gri-gri-2 in the very near future.

So many people (including me at one time), did not read and understand the precise operating instructions for the cinch, and how to operate it correctly for top efficiency and safety. Once i found that out, i didn't go back.

The secert in paying out rope smoothly to a climber is so simple it's misunderstood. A matter of holding the cinch in the right hand, with the hand clamped over the entire unit (ncluding the rope passing through), and at the moment to pay out rope, a simple matter of just rotating the Cinch a few inches with the wrist to easily pull out any amount of rope you need. so smooth and easy.

Recently, Trango came out with a good video on the correct operating procedure for the Cinch. It is a good one to take a look at, and understand how easily and simple correct operation of the Cinch can be. Pay careful attention how he operates the device, and then go through it a couple of times.

Then tie off a rope and practice, and get comfortable with it and it's operation.

I will attach a link below. I hope this helps you a little. Good Luck out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo (copy and past into your browser )

Bill

Bill I appreciate you taking time to answer. But I can't help but wonder if you have some sort of bias or financial interest in the Cinch? Your response sounds almost like a commercial. Sorry, had to ask.

shear wrote:

climb2core wrote:Hey Fuckwad,
NO SHIT. What a fucking useless answer.

Then why did you ask the useless question?

A bad belayer is a bad belayer. Period. Each device loads in it's own way, it feeds in it's own way. There are terrible gringri belayers, cinch belayers, figure 8 belayers. I'm not getting the point of your question...it sounds like you're looking for a device to save you from shitty belayers...

Not sure why you would perceive my question as useless. I am interested in minimizing my risk while climbing. Of course the most important factor in the belay system is the belayer. I realize that no device is idiot proof. However, I am looking for a device that is designed trying to account for the fact that people are imperfect and fallible, and that the unexpected does happen.

For the most part, devices work flawlessly when used as the manufacturer has suggested. However, the design may tend to lead people to use incorrectly. For example, the grigri is designed to for you to feed slack while maintaining your brake hand on the rope at all times. In reality, it is often difficult to get enough slack out quickly enough as it may catch. During theses situations I find myself moving my hand from the the rope to the grigri to release the cam so I can feed more rope.

It is possible to feed the rope through the grigri backwards, eliminating the locking mechanism. Agreed, there are handy little pics all over the grigri and this should be caught by the team double checking and building in redundancies. But wouldn't it be better if there was a design that didn't matter which way it was fed?

During lowering, you want a smooth and progressive system. Does one have an edge over the other on this?


You just assume that because I am asking for the best, safest system out there because I am trying to compensate for a bad belayer. Not the case. I am looking for the best and safest belay device available because I like stacking the odds in my favor as much as possible.

pigsteak wrote:how was drive by..I told you to stay home...trying to save you the angst of crappy weather..but noooooo.

Well, about a 1/3 of the group took your advice and bailed. I took off Friday and climbed at Military with the sun at my back in the mid 60's. Saturday we took Pawilkes advice and ended up at Roadside. Most of the time I forgot it was raining and it was quite comfortable out. I haven't climbed enough in my life for that type of weather to be a bad day.

dustonian wrote:I heard bad belayers are more prone to belayer error. IMO if you feel the need to ask about device "safety", it would be at least as important to re-evaluate who you're climbing with..take it or leave it, but it pays to be picky. Ultimately these devices increase the rate of accidents because they encourage complacency and reliance on technology versus solid skills and paying attention the whole time. That said, GriGri2 or Cinch for thin ropes, GG2 is easier to use but that says zero about "safety." Keep a hand on the brake strand and the question becomes meaningless--anything else is improper belaying.

Dustonian,
Do you have any statistical facts that back up that more accidents occur per incidence of use comparing the the auto locking devices to the traditional belay devices or is this just an anecdotal statement?

On a side note, regarding not paying attention. I now have a pair of C U Belay glasses and I think these greatly increase your ability to give an attentive belay. I never took my eyes of my climbing partner, something that even though momentary, that was quite frankly not happening before.

climb2core wrote:

shear wrote:

climb2core wrote:Hey Fuckwad,
NO SHIT. What a fucking useless answer.

Then why did you ask the useless question?

A bad belayer is a bad belayer. Period. Each device loads in it's own way, it feeds in it's own way. There are terrible gringri belayers, cinch belayers, figure 8 belayers. I'm not getting the point of your question...it sounds like you're looking for a device to save you from shitty belayers...

Not sure why you would perceive my question as useless. I am interested in minimizing my risk while climbing. Of course the most important factor in the belay system is the belayer. I realize that no device is idiot proof. However, I am looking for a device that is designed trying to account for the fact that people are imperfect and fallible, and that the unexpected does happen.

For the most part, devices work flawlessly when used as the manufacturer has suggested. However, the design may tend to lead people to use incorrectly. For example, the grigri is designed to for you to feed slack while maintaining your brake hand on the rope at all times. In reality, it is often difficult to get enough slack out quickly enough as it may catch. During theses situations I find myself moving my hand from the the rope to the grigri to release the cam so I can feed more rope.

It is possible to feed the rope through the grigri backwards, eliminating the locking mechanism. Agreed, there are handy little pics all over the grigri and this should be caught by the team double checking and building in redundancies. But wouldn't it be better if there was a design that didn't matter which way it was fed?

During lowering, you want a smooth and progressive system. Does one have an edge over the other on this?


You just assume that because I am asking for the best, safest system out there because I am trying to compensate for a bad belayer. Not the case. I am looking for the best and safest belay device available because I like stacking the odds in my favor as much as possible.

Ok. With more aspects to your question...it makes more sense. Your original question seemed (to me) that you were looking for something to counter a sketchy belayer, which is dumb...

I have a grigri2, and initial things I have found: 1.) With a smaller radius where the rope loads, it tends to slip more. Slack can build in the system (such as when having a small belly of rope out for the leader) that can cause the device to catch and then slip. 2.) It's relatively easy to lean over the grigri when it's engaged and open it up...like if your coat hits the cam when it's engaged, it's pretty sensitive and will open. 3.) the initial lower is rigid, in that you can't open it up all the way, producing a slower lower at first...good thing. This seems counter to number 2, but that's what we found.

So...honestly, a beginner belayer or even someone not quick to react or on top of their shit shouldn't use a grigri2. It seems like an advanced grigri to me. I love it though.

Shear,
Thanks for your insight and sorry for responding harshly. I agree that in general, that climbers are replacing sound belay skills for reliance on technology. I guess I was frustrated that people would assume that was me...knowing the group on this board I probably should have gone out of my way to call that out

Man that is complex. The click-up is easier even in German.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay4lph8tAFY
liberty mountain distributes it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US-f4Sko ... re=related
WTF
I love the pillow in the background