Perma-Draws!!!!

[THB]

routes are going to get equipped with project draws one-way or another... so, if people are willing and able to equip routes the best way possible, then why not do it?!?! I'd rather see perma-draws with steel biners than someone's 10-year old draws that they decided to leave on their project for the season...

plus, not everyone that climbs on pre-equipped routes realizes that they should also be checking the gear as they climb on it. So, if placing perma-draws reduces the number of accidents in the gorge by even just 1 a year... then i think it's worth it... and those locals that are willing and able to put in the time and effort can maintain the routes that have perma-draws on them... i know that there are only a few dedicated people right now that check and replace gear when needed... that's not enough...

as for the pink-pointing ethic, let's not take our selves too seriously... it's only sport climbing...

and if anyone has a problem with climbing on perma-draws... then they can feel free to place (and clean) their own draws along the way... i've gotta agree with some of allah's points... perma-draws will last longer than regular draws, it'll allow you to get in more pitches in a day, and it saves you from having to clean routes that are a pain to clean. (for example, belly of the beast... which used to have a cleaning biner on it, but i'm guessing someone thought it was a leaver-biner and it has since disappeared, we were on this route yesterday and we had to clean it and it was a pain in the neck! so, yea, on routes like that, i'd rather have perma-draws so that i don't need to worry about cleaning it...)

on a final note... i didn't post this topic to debate whether or not perma-draws are a good idea... i think they are a great idea and i'm going to be placing some in the gorge... so, rather than tell me it's a bad idea... why not help out... and tell me which routes need them more than others... for example, maybe you got on a route lately that has some really old grooved-out aluminum biners and it's a route that warrants perma-draws... or, maybe you got on a route like belly of the beast lately, and someone took the cleaning biner and you had to clean it yourself and it was pain!

thanks...

and pigsteak... thanks for your countless hours that you've devoted to route development in the gorge, i appreciate it and i know a ton of others do as well... and to one-fall... thanks for equipping table of colors with perma-draws... i don't think you should "pump the brakes" on putting up more, because i agree with you... i'm tired of getting on routes (like table of colors) and getting wigged out because the draws that are on it are grooved out and need replaced.

and so, i agree with pigsteak and with hugh that placing your own draws is the safest bet... but, let's face it climbers are going to place project draws and other climbers are going to climb on them... so, why not put up draws that will at least last longer and be safer (so long as there is a continued effort to maintain the routes that are equipped)...

[rhunt]

"plus, not everyone that climbs on pre-equipped routes realizes that they should also be checking the gear as they climb on it. So, if placing perma-draws reduces the number of accidents in the gorge by even just 1 a year... then i think it's worth it..." ~ this goes back to the old argument of dumbing down routes and rock climbing for that matter to the lowest common denominator. Is that really going to help? If someone is too stupid to know not to walk in front of a bus, should we get rid of all buses?

It may only be sport climbing but it is climbing and it is dangerous.

"we were on this route yesterday and we had to clean it and it was a pain in the neck! so, yea, on routes like that, i'd rather have perma-draws so that i don't need to worry about cleaning it..." HA you think cleaning a steep route is a "pain" try bolting one! After 18 years of climbing, I recently tried my hand at bolting a route for the first time. Bolting was the hardest "climbing" thing I have ever done.

So just to be clear, I am not against perma-draws were they are necessary, like the madness cave and various route that are similar. But to hear of routes getting perma-draws where its clearly easy to hang and clean the route...ie Check your grip and Up Yonder....that is just taking to way to far!

[pigsteak]

I also want to thank one fall for stepping up to this..in full disclosure, one of my recent steep routes in an undisclosed location was the beneficiary of one fall's (and matt johns I believe) generosity, as he equipped it with perma draws..they are super sweet. so instead of slowing down the process, I am encouraged by those who want to do a small part to make the Red this great place to climb....and one fall, make sure and put me down for ten of those perm draws when you order. I will put them on anchors and at the halfway point for cleaning on my new steep lines.

I am also guessing becasue of the wear, the first bolt should never have a perma draw, correct?

[THB]

@ rhunt - i've also started bolting recently and i'm fully aware of its difficulties... this has nothing to do with perma-draws, though... let's get back to the heart of the matter... trying to make the red a better and safer place to climb... and more importantly saving access for the future... does putting perma-draws on a route dumb it down? sure, i agree with that... but, i know that i've seen people walk up to a line that is clearly out of their ability level and say, "oh sweet, it has project draws on it... lets just try it... who cares if we can't finish it we can just bail at any point"... it's instances like this that could potentially jeopardize future access... so, what are you going to do about it?? like i said before, if putting up perma-draws can help... then, i'm all for it... if you're against it... then i hope you're willing to spend your mondays removing project draws that are getting worn thin in the gorge... or, maybe you can suggest a better alternative?? like ban people putting project draws up on routes all together... let's stop the petty arguing and just work together to make the red a better place for everyone...

@ pigsteak - that's a good point about the 1st bolt... but then, would it be necessary to make sure that none of the bolts that can be reached with a stick clip are equipped with a perma-draw... i'm sure that if the 1st bolt doesn't have a perma-draw on it, but the 2nd bolt does (and it can be reached with a stick clip), then we'll be seeing people just stick clipping the 2nd bolt as if it were the 1st... on another note, this doesn't seem to have been a problem on other routes that have been fully equipped with perma-draws (i.e. - iniquity and cell block)... or, have the steel biners on the 1st bolts of these routes just been getting replaced??

[cramacam]

Side note... I was on yonder this weekend.. and I noticed a slight flaw in the permadraw... several biners in a row were flipped (harder to clip going for the onsite) Is there anything in the permadraw world to correct this? (kinda like that rubber thing on the draw) Im prolly just a wiener and need to stop whining, but I could prolly learn a thing or two from the stick clip class at future rocktoberfest... I didnt know if there was something extra to donate that would be effective... and I know you need them to rotate to replace them. I'm just looking to learn a little something here.

As for requests for routes. I haven't been to Bob Marley in a pretty good while, but last I was there horn, tacit, velvet might be nice... Those are on constant traffic. Thanks to some nice proj draws I never had to clean em but man that would have been a pain in the neck for sure. Im not at that crag very consistently, so don't count this as a strong vote, just throwing it out there.

[allah]

Just a side note, I have been climbing in Rifle all summer, there are perma draws all over the place some new and some years old. all have steel biners and non are worn through or even close to it. Crags such as the Lode, Purgatory, parts of Bob Marley, Darkside, parts of Drive By, and a few of the crags in Muir, should either fully be perma equipped or partially. I don't feel everything should be permad cause it just doesn't make sense. But I guess if people are willing to buy the draws themselves more power to em. I do like Kipp's Idea for the anchors and a mid point. I think that would work for a lot of routes but it still won't stop people from leaving their draws up for a season(s), then you have to worry if those draws are to old and worry about replacing those or swapping out what you think are old worn out draws that aren't your. But hey I don't live there anymore so I guess I don't have much say eh

[aaronkupferer]

CRAMACAM, there is a thing in the general world that can be used to keep the 'biner from flipping... it's called tape. one side is sticky, and will hold to itself (when wrapped around on itself); all the while holding the 'biner in place on the link. and can be removed rather easily years on down the road if the 'biner ever needs to be replaced. just to note: it's usually white -while there are many different colors and even different types for many different applications. in this scenario, simple athletic tape will do the trick.

CHEERS, BUDDY!

[THB]

cramacam - thanks for your suggestions... this was the initial intent of this forum post!

ak - thanks for your smart aleck (but true and helpful) response to cramacam...

allah - thanks for your input too, i agree with you about the crags that you mentioned that should be fully perma'd. someone was telling me recently about rifle and the perma situation out there... about how people could donate money to get perma's put up in rifle and could even request which routes get equipped b/c of their donation... could you shed some light on how this works out in rifle??

maybe we could get something similar going for the RRG... i already know some similar efforts have been put forth, for example, by team suck climbing... i just don't think enough people know about it... but if we could get something going where people donate to get permas put up in the gorge... and a constant forum thread where people can report bad project draws... that'd be sweet. something along the lines of redriverclimbing.com, team suck, FOMV, RRGCC, and whoever else all teaming up together to tackle this? maybe that'll never work out... i'm just kicking ideas around...

[allah]

How people go about it in Rifle is a mystery to me, they just appear or have been there. my guess is the main core local group do a lot of it.

[louisville_climber]

Hoosier Heights donated 50 permadraws to Muir and most of them were put up on trail day. Props to them.