Voluntary route closure at Solar Collector
AHHJHHHH. Now that I have expressed my utter anger. Read carefully. It is on the list of species who are in fact, going to be listed as endangered. The whole reason you idiots see them all the time is because you are in their prime habitat!! They are not found in northern or western ky. Just the good ol eastern region. Why, because of the habitat. NOw that I have that clear. And no, you are correct, they are not currently listed as endangered, but are on the partial list. As you know, stuff moves slow in goverment. By the time they get around to listing speices, half the time its too late. The list is not updated on a regular basis, its based on funding and politics just as the rest of this world is. And only fuzzy feel good creatures usually get saved because of our prejudices towards species such as "rats". AHHHHH again. I could say so much more but God I am wasting my time. Before you (J-Rock) says another thing about this species, do some real research, and stop saying stuff you know nothing about!
They are listed as being present in EVERY county of Kentucky! What do you recommend? Closing or avoiding each route that hosts one of these guys? This is NOT a small percentage of climbs in the Red. Where are all the deer or rabbits in the Red? I don't see too many of them! Or wait! Is that the climbers' fault too!?! By the way, I'm not going to give up on this one. I am a climber (and a biologist).
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder
seriously...if we keep KILLING all the snakes there will be plently of rats for everyone!
Can anyone make a case that our presents at the cliff puts these *pontentally* endangered rats at rick......Mandala? I still think our presents actually helps them, at least it has for Mr. Green Horn rat, he has a sweet crib with lots of climbers trash to live off of all winter long, if we leave he will DIE!!
Can anyone make a case that our presents at the cliff puts these *pontentally* endangered rats at rick......Mandala? I still think our presents actually helps them, at least it has for Mr. Green Horn rat, he has a sweet crib with lots of climbers trash to live off of all winter long, if we leave he will DIE!!
Last edited by rhunt on Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist
Yes mandala you are wasting your time because you obviously haven't done your research either. Climber's in the Red threatining an endangered species? You have got to be kidding, have you even been to the area? Have you heard the ATV's, seen all the logging trucks, oil fields, hunters , housing developments, etc.. Let's just say there are way way bigger fish to fry. But you know what those people wouldn't give you the time of day, they wouldn't even take the time to let you call them idiots. They wouldn't attempt to have a civilized discussion about the issue to hear all sides and try to develop some kind of amicable solution.
"Good things take time, impossible things take a little longer"
Percy Gerutty
Percy Gerutty
First, I take Mandala, who is a biologist and a practicing scientist who completed field work on these creatures for around 2-years over the words of JRock who claims to be a biologist and has been doing some research on the net.
Second, NO ONE has said that we need to or should evacuate every cliff where there might be a woodrat. From reading this post, it is quite clear that some people, based up on the recommendations of a studied and accomplished professional, suggested a VOLUNTARY closure of a climb that contains a known threatened animal. After this, several other people, based upon sightings in the Red, feel threatened. Suddenly, they believe that climbers will threaten every cliff, every route, that might house a furry creature, or threatened species. NOT TRUE. No one has suggested this.
Finally, the same people who claim that we should not alter our behavior, will complain if the government bureaucracy acts and shuts a crag down. Guess what. It doesn't matter whether an endangered species is on private property. The Feds can come in and shut the crap down (this is an alarmist statement made to emphasize a point and isn't likely to happen).
That being said, to me it makes the most sense to evaluate how climbers impact a crag, analyze the data about SPECIFIC instances as they arise, and decide how best to reduce or minimize our impact on threatened species. Why is this so difficult to understand? Why are people so threatened by any attempt to do so? Must we wait until someone makes these decisions for us?
Also, who cares about the impact fo 4-wheelers. Technically, 4-wheelers, hunters and other humans are not allowed on teh Murray-Pendergrass preserve. So we're saying, "hey y'all cannot come b/c of your impact on the property but we can trash it any way we want without care to what lives there so long as we can climb."
Second, NO ONE has said that we need to or should evacuate every cliff where there might be a woodrat. From reading this post, it is quite clear that some people, based up on the recommendations of a studied and accomplished professional, suggested a VOLUNTARY closure of a climb that contains a known threatened animal. After this, several other people, based upon sightings in the Red, feel threatened. Suddenly, they believe that climbers will threaten every cliff, every route, that might house a furry creature, or threatened species. NOT TRUE. No one has suggested this.
Finally, the same people who claim that we should not alter our behavior, will complain if the government bureaucracy acts and shuts a crag down. Guess what. It doesn't matter whether an endangered species is on private property. The Feds can come in and shut the crap down (this is an alarmist statement made to emphasize a point and isn't likely to happen).
That being said, to me it makes the most sense to evaluate how climbers impact a crag, analyze the data about SPECIFIC instances as they arise, and decide how best to reduce or minimize our impact on threatened species. Why is this so difficult to understand? Why are people so threatened by any attempt to do so? Must we wait until someone makes these decisions for us?
Also, who cares about the impact fo 4-wheelers. Technically, 4-wheelers, hunters and other humans are not allowed on teh Murray-Pendergrass preserve. So we're saying, "hey y'all cannot come b/c of your impact on the property but we can trash it any way we want without care to what lives there so long as we can climb."
Jesus only knows that she tries too hard. She's only trying to keep the sky from falling.
-Everlast
-Everlast
Spragwa, IMO maybe the reason why so many people are reacting to this, "we need to close a climb to protect a Rat" thread is that climbers in the Red River Gorge are always facing the possiblity of cliffs and routes being closed. After losing part of Military, all of Arena and Oil Crack, maybe climbers are a little jumpy at facing another closure. We all jumped on the band wagon of buying the Murrey property..."if we own it they can't close it". Now we are talking about closing(even if temporary...like Military) a route or cliff in the "if we own it they can't close it" land.Spragwa wrote:That being said, to me it makes the most sense to evaluate how climbers impact a crag, analyze the data about SPECIFIC instances as they arise, and decide how best to reduce or minimize our impact on threatened species. Why is this so difficult to understand? Why are people so threatened by any attempt to do so? Must we wait until someone makes these decisions for us?
BUT to put an end to this issue,if you(all of us) check out www.rrggc.org, you'll see the issue has already been addressed.
Last edited by rhunt on Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist
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lordjim_2001
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