OK?

[pigsteak]

it's not an ethic. it's an aesthetic. nobody gives a shit so long as they can't see the extra 'work'.

wrong answer.

[sharon9999]

tbwilsonky wrote:
it's not an ethic. it's an aesthetic. nobody gives a shit so long as they can't see the extra 'work'.

Actually some people do give a shit.I do.
We are seeing people push forward in the grades to do routes climbers would have thought not possible 15 or 20 years ago.If you manufacture a route you may very well be destroying the route that is there.Just because you can't climb it,or maybe even no one today can climb it doesn't mean it isn't something climbable to some great climber of the next decade.If it's not a real route just leave it be.Not that I think there is any thing wrong with cleaning up a route.There's a big difference between cleaning it and creating it.Pulling off loose rock is not the same as drilling pockets and chipping holds.

[dustonian]

I think you missed Tommy's point--it is hard to give a shit about manufacturing on a route if you don't know about it to begin with.

[Spoonman]

Cleaning is one thing....
Drilling a hold is another....(so i can complete a route i otherwise could not...?)
My guess....in the grand scheme of things....it won't trump global warming?

If you own the land/rock then society says go for it, but it still seems lame.

In this case, we collectively own the land and i would hope/assume that the BOD is considering the issue and will state its opionion?

As far as giving a shit relative to visiblility and knowledge....agreed, if you do not know?, .....but one of the best climbers in the world has just (reportedly) labeled it poorly chipped on a very far reaching web?

Looks rad from the ground, probably is rad...regardless, but I think the Red (and the RRGCC) has/have enough issues to deal with without sponsoring route manufacturing.

[Spoonman]

TOC (table of colors).....was rumoured to be drilled, but not supported? Back in the day they (?) said the bass mouth, which is highly unlikely...in retrospect.... "we" really like that crux ending bomber three figure pocket?

Golden Touch....most likely-one hold, which i'm sure would have gone regardless?

[climb2core]

In this case, we collectively own the land and i would hope/assume that the BOD is considering the issue and will state its opionion?

They have in adopting these principles. (I believe):

Red River Gorge
Responsible Climbing Guidelines

Be aware of your surroundings:
• Find out what the local rules and regulations are before climbing
• Intentionally disperse your activity by selecting more remote areas; avoid the most popular crags
• Limit your group size to no more than 4-6 climbers
• Know whose land you are climbing on and what rules govern the property
Camp and travel on durable surfaces:
• Follow established trails to reach the rock
• Where no trails exist, spread out on durable ground, such as rock or gravel to avoid creating new paths
• Choose a campsite at least 300' from water, trails, clifflines and rock shelters
• DO NOT CAMP UNDER ROCK SHELTERS OR AT THE BASE OF CLIMBS
Pack it in, PACK IT OUT!!!
• All food wastes, including fruit cores and peels, should be carried out (Even fruit can alter the food habits of local wildlife, encouraging their dependency on humans)
• Please pick up trash where you find it. Discarded tape and CIGARETTE BUTTS are unsightly, so bring a small plastic bag for your trash
Properly dispose of what you can't pack out:
• Use toilets where available
• If toilets aren't available, urinate away from vegetation, climbing routes, streams and trails
• Dispose of solid human waste in a "cathole" at least 200 feet away from trails, the bases of climbs, water sources, or campsites; carry your own trowel for this.
• Pack out your toilet paper in re-sealable plastic bags
Leave what you find:
• Avoid trampling the vegetation at bases of climbs and cliff lines
• Avoid disturbance to all living things on cliffs (plants, lizards, salamanders, snakes, pack rats, bats, or nesting birds
• Do not cut, prune or remove trees, shrubs, or vegetation to improve a climb
• Cliff bases and rock shelters have been the sites of occupation by humans for centuries. Do not dig or collect artifacts. Archaeological sites are protected by Federal law
Minimize use and impact of campfires:
• Fire rings and pits at the base of any cliff are UNACCEPTABLE. Campfires contaminate cultural resource sites. If you find one, dismantle it and scatter the rocks in a nearby creek
• Fire rings are unnecessary if a fire is required. Do not make new rings. Use existing rings if necessary
• Cook on a camp stove instead of a fire, it's quicker, easier, and less harmful
• If a fire is required, collect only downed and dead wood. DO NOT CUT DOWN LIVE TREES OR SAPLINGS. Collect only that which you will use. Scatter unused wood after you leave
• Make sure the fire is extinguished completely before you leave. Remember, only you can prevent forest fires
Minimize climbing impacts:
• Chipping or creating new holds is UNACCEPTABLE
• Use removable protection and natural anchors whenever possible
• Use slings when rappelling from trees instead of rapping with ropes directly around the tree trunk. Choose natural colors for slings if they must be left behind
• Minimize chalk use and clean chalk off where you climb.
• Keep dogs on a leash at ALL times
Climber safety:
• Get climbing instruction from qualified people
• Be meticulous in applying your technical skills
• If you see what you believe to be an unsafe practice, let the person know
• Remove loose rocks only when necessary for safety
• Do not top rope directly through anchors. Use your own gear to set up a top rope and then remove the gear when you are done
Climber conduct:
• Respect the intent of first ascentionists. Do not add bolts or bolt anchors to existing climbs
• Know and follow the rules and standards governing the development of new climbing routes
• Be courteous to others and maintain a low profile
• Remember you are in the forest, not a gym. Use earbuds instead of a boombox
• Resist trash talk and using expletives on failed attempts
• When you are finished climbing a route, remove your gear and your rope so another party can climb. It is discourteous to put or leave up ropes on multiple routes and leave them unattended
• Respect the efforts of others by staying off routes where red tags have been left on a project.

[Rotarypwr345704]

In this case, we collectively own the land and i would hope/assume that the BOD is considering the issue and will state its opionion?

They have in adopting these principles. (I believe):

Red River Gorge
Responsible Climbing Guidelines

Be aware of your surroundings:
• Find out what the local rules and regulations are before climbing
• Intentionally disperse your activity by selecting more remote areas; avoid the most popular crags
• Limit your group size to no more than 4-6 climbers
• Know whose land you are climbing on and what rules govern the property
Camp and travel on durable surfaces:
• Follow established trails to reach the rock
• Where no trails exist, spread out on durable ground, such as rock or gravel to avoid creating new paths
• Choose a campsite at least 300' from water, trails, clifflines and rock shelters
• DO NOT CAMP UNDER ROCK SHELTERS OR AT THE BASE OF CLIMBS
Pack it in, PACK IT OUT!!!
• All food wastes, including fruit cores and peels, should be carried out (Even fruit can alter the food habits of local wildlife, encouraging their dependency on humans)
• Please pick up trash where you find it. Discarded tape and CIGARETTE BUTTS are unsightly, so bring a small plastic bag for your trash
Properly dispose of what you can't pack out:
• Use toilets where available
• If toilets aren't available, urinate away from vegetation, climbing routes, streams and trails
• Dispose of solid human waste in a "cathole" at least 200 feet away from trails, the bases of climbs, water sources, or campsites; carry your own trowel for this.
• Pack out your toilet paper in re-sealable plastic bags
Leave what you find:
• Avoid trampling the vegetation at bases of climbs and cliff lines
• Avoid disturbance to all living things on cliffs (plants, lizards, salamanders, snakes, pack rats, bats, or nesting birds
• Do not cut, prune or remove trees, shrubs, or vegetation to improve a climb
• Cliff bases and rock shelters have been the sites of occupation by humans for centuries. Do not dig or collect artifacts. Archaeological sites are protected by Federal law
Minimize use and impact of campfires:
• Fire rings and pits at the base of any cliff are UNACCEPTABLE. Campfires contaminate cultural resource sites. If you find one, dismantle it and scatter the rocks in a nearby creek
• Fire rings are unnecessary if a fire is required. Do not make new rings. Use existing rings if necessary
• Cook on a camp stove instead of a fire, it's quicker, easier, and less harmful
• If a fire is required, collect only downed and dead wood. DO NOT CUT DOWN LIVE TREES OR SAPLINGS. Collect only that which you will use. Scatter unused wood after you leave
• Make sure the fire is extinguished completely before you leave. Remember, only you can prevent forest fires
Minimize climbing impacts:
• Chipping or creating new holds is UNACCEPTABLE
• Use removable protection and natural anchors whenever possible
• Use slings when rappelling from trees instead of rapping with ropes directly around the tree trunk. Choose natural colors for slings if they must be left behind
• Minimize chalk use and clean chalk off where you climb.
• Keep dogs on a leash at ALL times
Climber safety:
• Get climbing instruction from qualified people
• Be meticulous in applying your technical skills
• If you see what you believe to be an unsafe practice, let the person know
• Remove loose rocks only when necessary for safety
• Do not top rope directly through anchors. Use your own gear to set up a top rope and then remove the gear when you are done
Climber conduct:
• Respect the intent of first ascentionists. Do not add bolts or bolt anchors to existing climbs
• Know and follow the rules and standards governing the development of new climbing routes
• Be courteous to others and maintain a low profile
• Remember you are in the forest, not a gym. Use earbuds instead of a boombox
• Resist trash talk and using expletives on failed attempts
• When you are finished climbing a route, remove your gear and your rope so another party can climb. It is discourteous to put or leave up ropes on multiple routes and leave them unattended
• Respect the efforts of others by staying off routes where red tags have been left on a project.

Goddamn. You're getting as bad as Redpoint...

[climb2core]

Hmmm, the Responsible Climbing Guidelines actually has an abbreviated version that goes in ever RRG guidebook. I think the fact that you see this document as obscure trivia speaks volumes for the current state of education of climbers.

[Rotarypwr345704]

Hmmm, the Responsible Climbing Guidelines actually has an abbreviated version that goes in ever RRG guidebook. I think the fact that you see this document as obscure trivia speaks volumes for the current state of education of climbers.

Obscure trivia? Because that is exactly what I said (or even implied for that matter). You're dumb as fuck. Ugh I just don't care enough to even

You know what? This is you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

Have fun beauty.

[climb2core]

Once a troll, always a troll.