PDs at Lode

[tbwilsonky]

If everyone on this site is going to be as unhelpful as you have been then I am obviously wasting my time.

i wouldn't take it personally. it's the internet. it was built by miserable assholes so other miserable assholes would have a venue for being miserable assholes.

[Artsay]

Cletus - seems to me it was always the intention to only equip steep routes. Dario and I talked about this when we went in on the whole deal with Climbtec. And it seems to me that's pretty much what's been done (except for Chainsaw which I'm guessing was put up for convenience). Hoofmaker just had 'em put up within the past few weeks and and it seems to me they should've been left on it given the steepness.

Also seems to me that if you all went out, did this deed, removed all aluminum junk, put up some cleaners, and announced this as contribution to the community instead of the way it was handled then it wouldn't have come to this. I also think that saying you all will remove personal gear if left up for a couple of weeks is in general a good idea but not always. For example, if I hang my draws on something and am working

All - Some of us are planning on putting PDs on Taste the Rainbow this weekend. The existing fixed draws are dangerous, dog bones crusty and worn through in some spots, and a bolt-side quickline is even open on a crux draw and bent so it can't be closed shut. Given the nature of this route being wet, dank, meandering, and steep as heck, it's worthy IMO. So if anyone has a problem with this, please PM me. But in any case, the existing fixed draws need to come down ASAP.

[dustonian]

Aw man, I really wanted that pizza bounty

[rhunt]

Artsay - my problem with this whole debate is that somewhere since I stopped climbing, the climbing community starting managing fixed gear. If you are currently working on Taste the Rainbow then it is your responsiblity to unsure your safety and if that mean swtiching out the fixed gear than do it. It's not the responsiblity of the community in general to go around accessing the intergity of fixed gear, its up to the individual climbers. This the why I was against the PD fund raiser last year and why I knew it would set a bad precedent and although maybe not exactly related, it led to this whole situation/debate.

My two old-crust cents

[bcombs]

To me, individual climbers and the Climbing Community are one in the same. If an individual performs an act and calls it for the community or for themselves, the result of the act is the same, to the benefit or detriment of the community as a whole. The only difference between now and when you weren't so crusty is the easy access to communication and organization.

[cletuswilcox]

Michelle- I'm glad you have an opinion on the etiquette in which "the crew" handled the removal of the perma-draws at the lode on Tues. Unfortunately since you apparently have no regard for personal apologies and public expressions of regret for one's words and actions I'm not sure what I can do or say in response to your comment. Your opinions on etiquette mean even less to me after you have left the defects of my character open for public discussion on this website. If you honestly feel that any route on the undertow is too steep or dangerous to clean with fixed cleaning draws than I don't know what to tell you. Most of the gear in the Madness cave is in worse condition than any of the gear on the undertow was and in my opinion is more worthy of the climbtek draws.

[Artsay]

Rob - nope, not my project. But I was on it recently and it's super sketchy. Still not sure if PDs are going on all bolts or just a select few. Have you ever climbed it? It meanders all over so it has many places that fixed draws are needed to safely clean the route.

[rhunt]

not been on it - I realy don/t have much to offer this debate since I am not climbing much these days - BUT I love the Red and want to see the next generation take good care of it.

[griffin]

i have a question for the "crew" by taking off the perma draws from the undertow wall you hope to restore climbing ethics. but you leave the madness cave draws on. why? how i see it is that the undertow is more worthy of the permadraws becouse way more climbers climb on the undertow then in the madness cave. wouldnt it make more sense to leave the draws on the routes that are more traveled? by leaving the PD's on the undertow you make it more safe for climbers. becouse now it is just a matter of time before someones manky project draws get put on chainsaw. if you go to the load at any given weekend you might see one or two people climbing in the madness cave while at the undertow their might be easily 10 or 15 people. i also want to point out that routes that are less travled for example the madness, wich might see 20 ascents a year (sorry that was just a wild guess) compared to chainsaw that might see easily 200 ascent a year. wich do you think deserves permadraws more? the route that doesnt really get all that much traffic or one of the most iconic routes at the red.

[climb2core]

i have a question for the "crew" by taking off the perma draws from the undertow wall you hope to restore climbing ethics. but you leave the madness cave draws on. why? how i see it is that the undertow is more worthy of the permadraws becouse way more climbers climb on the undertow then in the madness cave. wouldnt it make more sense to leave the draws on the routes that are more traveled? by leaving the PD's on the undertow you make it more safe for climbers. becouse now it is just a matter of time before someones manky project draws get put on chainsaw. if you go to the load at any given weekend you might see one or two people climbing in the madness cave while at the undertow their might be easily 10 or 15 people. i also want to point out that routes that are less travled for example the madness, wich might see 20 ascents a year (sorry that was just a wild guess) compared to chainsaw that might see easily 200 ascent a year. wich do you think deserves permadraws more? the route that doesnt really get all that much traffic or one of the most iconic routes at the red.

IMHO, Routes should be considered a candidate for PD's based upon (in order):
1.) Eligibility (not contrary to the Land owner's policy)
2.) Steepness (Don't bling it up just because it is popular)
3.) Popularity

Anyone choosing to climb on PD's needs to be responsible for their condition and maintenance.