The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

[Shamis]

Look at the Gunks... It is $17 a day to climb and it is still stupid backed. Worst then any crag I have seen in the red.

The gunks could be much worse than it is. Camping at the gunks is a bitch. Paying 17 bucks a day sucks. But it is really close to a huge number of people (NYC, PHL, BOS etc), and it has a ton of really great routes under 5.9 that are worth doing. That's a recipe for disaster.

One of the few things the red had going for it in terms of crowds was the difficulty of the climbing(very few worthwhile moderates), but by putting lots of bolts close together with permadraws that barrier to entry was removed.

[Shamis]

How about the New? Its basically the same distance as the red from most places in Michigan/Ontario yet it seems like a majority of the people come here cause ITS THE RED!!!! Same with people driving from the south passing all the great crags down there to come to the red. Just seems like its the place to be even though there is a ton of other great places out there.

I think the only conclusion that can be drawn is that people in the midwest really like pizza.

[EricDorsey]

I know its probably blasphemous to say around here but I thought Pies and Pints was just as good.

[pigsteak]

naw, eric, you are spot on....pies n pints is excellent pizza

[charlie]

All good until the beard part and then "something delicate like knitting or Mtn. Biking??" Really? Mtn. Biking? Let me take you Mtn. Biking, I'll even let you use one of my rigs and we'll see how delicate you think it is.

Last time I checked even pigsteak had to wipe off his feet before starting a route and he brushed his shirt off if there happened to be any chalk on it.

JK

Mountain Biking is totally too delicate for climbers, so boring it's really only small children that can entertain themselves with it. It's so little fun no chuffers should even think about wasting their time. Knitting on the other hand is quite the rage these days.

Also, just wanted to let everyone know I miss this place, miss it like an endless chain of overpriced, watered down drinks or a good case of the clap. Kipper's ability to argue with himself never fails to entertain.

[pigsteak]

lol...miss you too charlie....but karen and virginia are bad ass knitters, so ya better watch yer words there.

[LK Day]

There was a time when climbing was technically hard, dangerous and tons of fun. The crowds stayed away, in droves.
Today climbing is technically easy, safe and tons of fun. The crowds come, in droves.
We reap what we have sown.

[bcombs]

In general, the barrier to entry for the Red is very, very low. Plenty of access to multiple areas, a broad spectrum of route grade, high quantity of routes, etc, etc... With perma-draws in play the problem worsens, the required gear list is minimal and cheap. No difficulty in finding others to take you out or just use the book / GPS coordinates to walk you to the crag. It's all very easy and accessible.

All the things I just listed are part of the reason the crowds are huge, but if we are being honest with ourselves, it is also part of the reason that every one of us started. (With the exception of Day and the Capt'n ). It's also part of the reason we all love and continue coming to the Red.

I love climbing, just like we all do. I love the Red. Since I've been hurt I've missed the area like crazy. We need to find a way to come together and come to some kind of concensus on the direction to head in. When is the next Coalition meeting?

[bcombs]

Larry summed it up better than me.

[LK Day]

Larry summed it up better than me.

Ah, but your more scholarly outlook points toward at least a partial solution.