Who does it belong to?

[RRO]

its not like just poo is the only issue we are dealing with here folks....straw meet camels back.....the problem can be marked down as what has been said a hundred times in this thread and a hundred before it...respect the land, know who owns it, know the rules for the piece your on and be content you have any chance on climbing in private areas at all and if someone is doing something dumb speak up....

[steep4me]

The rules for pooping at Torrent are "don't poop at Torrent unless you poop in a bag or a nalgene bottle and pack it out w/ the toilet paper you use." And--don't do your business in view of cabins or trails/tourists and don't walk on vegetation where there are signs that say "don't go past this point."

I think.

[climb2core]

no need to bash the "others" as making this a problem.....locals (to me meaning anyone within a 2-3 hour drive of the Red) are no better or no worse at taking care of our land. we are all people, and there is that certain element that will disregard any rules. The more I here, I vote for permanently closing Torrent.

Or is there a way that big massive metal signage can be installed at the trailhead, and up at every wall? I would gladly head up the fundraiser for this. IN letters 12" high, we can spell out the basic rules that shld be common sense, but apparently are not.

So Dr Bob, instead of asking us climbers to police ourselves (which has proven over and over and over to not work), may several of us have your permission to take a different approach to the problem. Not sure what that will end up looking like, but I would begin it if you say it is cool. Your private land, we sort of need your approval to proceed.

Kipp, you are a good guy and are obviously ready to help anyway possible. I think this needs to be addressed in a more deliberate manner. First, Dr. Bob needs to fully air his grievances and clarify what the end results he wants are. Then I think you put together a group of people that care and wish to help to brainstorm solutions and lastly present this to Dr. Bob. He chooses what he wants and it is implemented. I know some people will say this is his land and his problem. No one has any obligation to partipate and Dr. Bob has a right to offer people to be part of the solution that may allow some form of access to torrent

[Rollo]

hope all goes well.

[clif]

i don't think this is about Dr. Metheny.

[Clevis Hitch]

The amazing thing that I find is that we are talking about shit. Literally shit. I got a big Idea, How about a port-a-pottie! Bob already carries insurance so how about making climbers pay-to-play? It seems the obvious answer lies in the obvious solution. I mean think about it. You open a venue to people, one of the first things that you have to take care of is where are they gonna shit. Plus I think that the feds just paid something like 14 million dollars to put in a septic line from torrent to slade. You should tap into that line.

[clif]

so classic. it's like that time i tripped and black was white and white just melted off into some other ..shape?

[rhunt]

Matt,
I think Lena_Chita and Rollo summed the question up better. Believe me, no one hates what a shit show climbing in the red has become more than me. I see this disgusting sense of entitlement at every major crag. I' ve heard people making fun of Kentucky half way up a route to the rest of their loser friends like they run the damn place. The last time i climbed at Torrent (when Mark owned it) i found a used tampon in the middle of the trail to Seek the Truth.
Most of these people could care less about who owns the land, or the people of this region, or the culture, and the resources; many of which found nowhere else in the world. If we as a community want to do something about this, i am all for it. I think every crag should have a daily limit on people like torrent. One need only look at the very short history of climbing in the area. Look at all the places that are already closed because of overuse. Porter purposed a limited climbing season at places like military to allow for the areas to regrow the rest of the year. Other great management ideas have been proposed.
I think Torrent and Muir are just part of a problem that is much deeper. The Red has become so accessible that people view it like a gym and act accordingly.
Again like many others have said; thank you Bob, Rick, Liz, Matt, Amy, Miguel, and many others for your overwhleming generosity. And Bob if you want someone to kick this trash talking spoiled kid in the balls i'll be first in line. But also realize that if it keeps going like it has in the whole region, you all(on private land) will be the only ones climbing.

sean n

I just had to quote that...it all needed said again...read it again!!!


As for the PMRP - it may be the shining example but it is NOT secure. It can be forced to close in many of the same ways that Bob is feeling the pressure to close Torrent. The same entitled douches that are messing things up at Torrent can force the hand of the RRGCC to close the PRMP. I like the little saying of "if we own it they can't close it" but its not reality. If we don't figure out how to deal with these issues we can lose it all.

[OZ]

Clevis - that very thing had been formerly tried. I didn't work so well. Nobody wanted to walk "all" the way down to the entrance to do their thing.

[kneebar]

I gave up a long time ago trying to figure why someone would take a crap in the middle of a trail. Much less half the shit that you see out there. Unfortunately common decency and respect for someone's property apparently is out of style. For some odd reason I really think the assholes that do this stuff sit back a laugh about it knowing what they are doing.

So what is the solution? Whatever the solution it needs to be something Bob won't have to lift a finger dealing with. I am one of the fortunate ones we access, I am honored to be his friend and feel in debt to Bob for the privilege of climbing there. I know he doesn't feel I should be indebted but I just do.

I think it is up to those with keys to step up and start (if they haven't already) policing when climbing there. It is tough, you don't want to come off as an asshole to cabin guests. Maybe do a walk around with a garbage bag. It is a start.

So who are the users that do the damage, hard to say but likely climbers.

Key holders to the golden crag? Could there be entitlement among those people? Are they letting other climbers use there card or pin number without express permission from Bob each time? I really don't know, don't have any suspicions but
unfortunately it is possible abuse of a very special privilege. If so, get a clue, if you don't care you suck and don't deserve access.

Cabin guests? Not always climber, I would hope that anyone renting a cabin would follow the rules and have some sense about it. I have heard that paying guests have let climbers in that are not registered with there pin number. That is fucked up. Just play by the rules.

Climbers that just walk in? Park across the road, hop the fence walk around an obvious gate.......seriously messed up attitude. I have heard some lame ass excuses for that. I have also approached non climbers just wanting to go look at the waterfall.......go right around a gate....clueless.