Ew, ucky, poo!!

Post by **anticlmber** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:55 pm

just be glad shit rolls downhill.

piggie, try being positive once in awhile. and that's coming from me ya dick.

i have buried every shit i have ever taken and the majority have been dug with a stick i find en route. the ground around the gorge is soft and sandy, shovels aren't needed to dig, get people to realize that first.

honestly i don't know how they are able to shit with their head so far up their ass.

Post by **StephyG** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:59 pm

Problem with the shovel idea is some people will use the shovel to cover up their poo and then, whoops, there is poop on the shovel.
But I guess you can always bring your own.

I'm thinking the pack it out solution sounds best and maybe some t-shirts and snazzy posters to get people more comfortable with the idea.

Post by **Lander** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:04 pm

anticlmber wrote:i have buried every shit i have ever taken and the majority have been dug with a stick i find en route. the ground around the gorge is soft and sandy, shovels aren't needed to dig, get people to realize that first.

i wouldn't want to share a shovel with others. i know we're talking about camping potty here but it doesn't sound very sanitary.

i've always buried mine as well but i found that sticks on the ground tend to break too easily when you try to dig with them, because there's usually tree roots in the ground.

the last couple years i've been carrying in my pack a small garden trowell, all metal, that won't break or bend. obviously, i never let poop touch it, just dirt. works great. i'd highly reccomend it. first i dig a good sized hole, then when i'm done fill the hole back in with the loose dirt and try to find a big rock to place on top to foil poop eating dogs.

since nobody's brought it up, has anybody else noticed that more and more often you'll encounter unburied poo under rock houses? who are the morons that do this? i also don't understand why people would want to go anywhere near where other people have been going. why not find a secluded place that's more off the beaten path?

never realized i'd have so much to say on this topic.

but it does need to be discussed because, with so many climbers out there, it really is starting to be a bit of a problem.

Post by **Meadows** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:36 pm

Lander wrote: since nobody's brought it up, has anybody else noticed that more and more often you'll encounter unburied poo under rock houses? who are the morons that do this? i also don't understand why people would want to go anywhere near where other people have been going.

It's the spot at the ML that prompted this and I wonder if humans operate the way dogs do. You know how they get trained to go in a certain spot because that's where all the other poo is? I guess if it's all in one spot, the forest service will have an easier time cleaning.

Oh, and dig with a shovel, bury with a stick. If your cat hole is deep, your shovel won't come in contact.

Post by **Josephine** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:42 pm

from "how to shit in the woods" by kathlen meyer pg. 21 (bold emphasis mine)

The trade-offs in environmental protections are between security and decomposition. The ideal spot for rapid decomposition (rapid is completely relative here; under the best conditions, human shit can take more than a year to vanish) is dry to somewhat moist, but not excessively moist, with abundant humus and bacteria.

pg 23

The next and most thankful thing to learn about diggings is that you're not required to dig to China. Quite the contrary: the most effective enzymes for breaking down excrement live within the top eight inches of the soil. It's generally recommended that you dig down six to eight inches...

pg 24

Stirring is a brilliant new technique that we all need to learn and employ. It is that "mixing" of the item we've deposited on our one-sit hole with lose dirt scraped from the sides fo the hole before covering it over, all to the purpose of enhancing the decomposition rate by way of bringing soil bacteria in contact with a greater portion of the turd. Use a small stick for this purpose, something you can drop into the hole, not a tool you will be returning to your belt-sheath or backpack. Think ahead. Pick up a downed stick along the way to your mission site, and when first digging the hole, loosen some dirt from the sides. Where there are no sticks, be creative. Use a stone. Carry a few Popsicle sticks you don't mind parting with. Be aware that "no sticks" may mean a high use area, an area with no bacteria in the soil, or an area with no soil - situations, once again, where packing-it-out is environmentally preferable to burying it.

The merits of stirring come to us as far back as 1982 in a study conducted in Mondana's Bridger Range... Fecal matter inoculated with bacterial pathogens E. coli and salmonella was buriedin cat holes. Samonella proved a hardy survivor at all sites over the winter; E. coli persisted at some. Researchers theorized that fecal matter may actually insulate bacteria from the breakdown action of soil and propsed that mixing soil and feces might speed up die-off. Noe one could imagine bacountry recreationists employing such a practice. Now here we are... stirring!

sigh there's soooo much good information in that book. it's only $8 and makes a great gift for the camper/climber in your life. it's also a great book to leave in your bathroom at home. there's also lots and LOTS of funny stories about shit in there. literally.

so IF you still want to bury it, don't forget to bring a sturdy shovel, (unless of course you want to try anti's method of using a stick to dig a deep enough hole), plastic bag, TP

then:
- find a spot away from the drip line
- find a spot away from running water
- find a spot above the highest point of the water table - ie. where a spring flood might go (remember your turd is going to be there for at least 1 year - perhaps a lot longer if you don't stir

)
- dig a hole 6-8 inches
- shit
- stir it with a small stick
- put the stick in the hole
- bury the whole thing
- put your used TP in a plastic bag & pack it out.

whew. after all that - wag bags are just so much simpler.

Post by **sharon9999** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:04 pm

I seriously doubt people are not aware of the fact that they are expected to bury their shit and pack out T.P. and tampons.I don't think there are but a few who don't know about "leave no trace". They don't care.T-shirts and shovels will not likely do much of any thing to help the problem.This won't be a popular idea but a temporary closure at ML,give the area a much needed break.Post big signs at ML parking area to make sure every one knows exactly why no one can climb there......that may get the point across. Hit them where it hurts.

Post by **Shamis** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:52 pm

the lurkist wrote:I read Rick's post about the challenges of pit toilets, but how about a pit toilet on around on the south slope, down the old logging road (logging- get it?) as you go up the hill to the undertow wall. The old road peels off to the right shortly after the trail tops out on the approach to the Undertow. The squatter could be built a bit just down this old two track. A platform would be built over a deep hole (to accomodate quite a bit of poo. ) You poop, drop in a handful of organic matter and let microbes, metabolic heat, and oxygen doo the rest. It would need to be resupplied occ with organic matter to mix. Wood chips, or just leaves (in which case no resupply needed). Yes, it would fill evetually. It would need to be moved at some point. But being built on the south sun exposed slope with good drainage it would basically take care of it self. It would be far enough up hill from any water that all infectious disease risk (Hep A, typhoid, e coli, giardia, etc) would be degraded in the drainage field (the long hillside down to the creek.)

Clearly I have been thinking of poo at the lode (huh..) for a long time.
A good friend (Danita Dolores- yes that one) is a chemical engineer/ ground water specialist. She always said that open pit toilet with organic matter is the best waste treatment system. The one limiting factor is how much poo would be deposited. If the pit toilet was used too frequently it would fill faster than degradation could occur. How many defacation occurances are there at the lode per day/week. I would think that they would be some what finite.

I like this idea. Given the number of people climbing in the area, this seems like the only long term solution.

You people might be able to convince the locals. But you'll never stop the visitors from shitting everywhere.

Post by **Snowpuppy** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:07 pm

Blue Bags like the use on Rainier with a depository at the bottom of the climbing area.

Post by **clif** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:35 pm

the first sign of maturity is an ability to take care of one's own shit. the evasive thought that shared shovels, t-shirts, bags and drop-offs are somehow going to address the issue is to reason with a two year old.

sorry.

well, if it were true, it certainly would not be any additional burden (for the lazy folk who think that being civilized with a built, 'maintained', somewhat hidden in the woods to avoid the insane portion of the population that is amused by vandalising a toilet (perhaps attach a plaque invoking a sympathetic figure of legend that will alert vandal's higher consciousness..:"Welcome to the Memorial ...Ralph Stanley, tubgirl, Alex and the droogs..please enjoy responsibly...) latrine than all this logistical analysis. My god, instructions on digging a hole?

Post by **clif** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:12 pm

edit..