Mixed climbing wisdom
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anticlmber
- Posts: 3393
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:34 am
yeah what are you talking about...money makers. You don't own or work at a climbing gym....yet.
And when or if you do, you will educate all these young rats on how to act while outside...right? Or will you just take their money and let them trash the Red?
And when or if you do, you will educate all these young rats on how to act while outside...right? Or will you just take their money and let them trash the Red?
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist
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anticlmber
- Posts: 3393
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:34 am
If the gear is easily placed with a standard rack, then I don't see why a 5.10 sportclimber would be unable to do a 5.10 trad route. He might have to hang more often, but it should still be safe.anticlmber wrote: Is thas what you meant to say? So... if you get there first is what it comes down to. You run up to it, bolt and call it good. An 5.X climber, (who only uses bolts) can bolt a crack, (blasphemy, well maybe not) then that route is being done by someone who climbs at that grade with the gear THEY use. Why should trad climbers get all the fun? Talk out of one end or the other, not both.
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I bought in to the "respect the rock" theory as a newb, but not any more. Cliffs aren't sacred things to worship and don't need to be maintained in their natural state at all costs (puts on fire suit for the flames). The cliffs will be around forever no matter how many holes are drilled. The rock only changes when climbers clean routes or break off holds. Of course, these two factors get overlooked for safety and nature of the beast reasons. Hmmmm.
The only real protection needed is access.
Bolts don't destroy anything, people do. People will be the demise of everything they love because they don't understand how to compromise for the greater good. The only people that really seem to have major issues about bolts are the higher level, hardcore climbers and they are the minority. Narrow the scope to only trad and the number drops even more.
Why should any higher level climber give a hoot whether or not a 5.8 trad line gets bolted? They probably won't ever climb the route again. What difference does it make how the FA was done? Their accomplishment will never change. All that matters now is how people want to climb it today. If that means with bolts as a sport climb, then so be it. Who cares if a 5.10 climber bitches and moans about a climb they'll never do again vs the thousands of people who want to climb it now.
Why is this considered bringing it down their level? How is adding bolts doing that? The crack is still there, the protection can still be done with gear. Is this an ego thing?
Is it a natural state thing? How so if there are bolts 10 feet to the left on a sport route? Or hundreds of bolts on a cliff 2 miles away. The cliffs at the red are already far from being natural these days so the whole excuse just shouldn't be used at the Red anymore and tossed out for good.
I believe the main issue at the Gorge is overcrowding and overuse of specific crags which is going to lead to their demise and destruction. Several have already seen route closings for one reason or another. This is not going to fix itself and is only going to get worse as climbing traffic continues to grow and grow. People are getting fed up and no longer visiting, but for every person that leaves there are 20 more coming to take their place.
What has to be done is a push to open up more of the established climbs to a wider spectrum of people in order to spread out the traffic and destruction and attract even more people to support the Red and bring their money to the area.
Look at the route stats! 300 trad routes in the 5.6 to 5.8 range.
More sport routes need to be developed within the 5.7 to 5.8 range which the majority of weekend climbers these days tend to seek out. The weekend warriors may not bring a lot skill to the area, but they sure can bring a lot of money and support for the area. You can either embrace the majority or tell them to go to hell. The latter seems to be the most used answer. Lets face it.... climbers don't spend money, but weekend warriors do!!
I know the established crags just won't support a lot of new routes, but there is the option of opening those 300 trad routes to sport climbing. Things would change drastically toward the better. People would be spread out over a broader area lowering the overall impact at each crag. The gorge would then be able to support 10 times the amount of traffic it has now, so future growth is welcomed. People that left for good will start coming back to experience less crowding and discover all the routes they could never do before and bring their money right along with them.
Personally, I do have extra money I would donate to a place I could enjoy. However, far as climbing goes, the Red has been elusive to me so I have yet to truely care about it's climbing access fate. I don't spend my entire life training to climb, but I do enjoy climbing. I can do trad, but it's extremely limited. So, when I visit the Red, the climbs within my range are jammed packed and that just ruins my outlook on the place. The routes at my level that aren't packed are spread so far apart, it's difficult for a weekend warrior to get a lot of climbing in. I can't do 5.7 and 5.8 trad on my limited experience, so all those routes are just mocking me because I could probably do them as sport climbs. I would visit far more often if I knew there were 300+ sport routes within my range.
I'm sure there a thousands of people out there with the same attitude as me. They love to climb, but don't have the time to spend every moment in the gym or they live to far away from a crag to train outside enough. We just have to live with being mediocre!
We have money to donate, but aren't going to do so just to support everyone else. The people in charge of the routes at RRG and the climbers who frequent the place clearly don't care if we can climb harder routes or not. So, in return, if we can't visit and have a decent day of climbing, why should we care what happens to the place?
So I say... let the Gorge evolve and quit holding back progress. Bolt the trad areas that see little to no use and revitilize the RRG. Sport climbing is here to stay and will be what saves most crags.
The only real protection needed is access.
Bolts don't destroy anything, people do. People will be the demise of everything they love because they don't understand how to compromise for the greater good. The only people that really seem to have major issues about bolts are the higher level, hardcore climbers and they are the minority. Narrow the scope to only trad and the number drops even more.
Why should any higher level climber give a hoot whether or not a 5.8 trad line gets bolted? They probably won't ever climb the route again. What difference does it make how the FA was done? Their accomplishment will never change. All that matters now is how people want to climb it today. If that means with bolts as a sport climb, then so be it. Who cares if a 5.10 climber bitches and moans about a climb they'll never do again vs the thousands of people who want to climb it now.
Why is this considered bringing it down their level? How is adding bolts doing that? The crack is still there, the protection can still be done with gear. Is this an ego thing?
Is it a natural state thing? How so if there are bolts 10 feet to the left on a sport route? Or hundreds of bolts on a cliff 2 miles away. The cliffs at the red are already far from being natural these days so the whole excuse just shouldn't be used at the Red anymore and tossed out for good.
I believe the main issue at the Gorge is overcrowding and overuse of specific crags which is going to lead to their demise and destruction. Several have already seen route closings for one reason or another. This is not going to fix itself and is only going to get worse as climbing traffic continues to grow and grow. People are getting fed up and no longer visiting, but for every person that leaves there are 20 more coming to take their place.
What has to be done is a push to open up more of the established climbs to a wider spectrum of people in order to spread out the traffic and destruction and attract even more people to support the Red and bring their money to the area.
Look at the route stats! 300 trad routes in the 5.6 to 5.8 range.
More sport routes need to be developed within the 5.7 to 5.8 range which the majority of weekend climbers these days tend to seek out. The weekend warriors may not bring a lot skill to the area, but they sure can bring a lot of money and support for the area. You can either embrace the majority or tell them to go to hell. The latter seems to be the most used answer. Lets face it.... climbers don't spend money, but weekend warriors do!!
I know the established crags just won't support a lot of new routes, but there is the option of opening those 300 trad routes to sport climbing. Things would change drastically toward the better. People would be spread out over a broader area lowering the overall impact at each crag. The gorge would then be able to support 10 times the amount of traffic it has now, so future growth is welcomed. People that left for good will start coming back to experience less crowding and discover all the routes they could never do before and bring their money right along with them.
Personally, I do have extra money I would donate to a place I could enjoy. However, far as climbing goes, the Red has been elusive to me so I have yet to truely care about it's climbing access fate. I don't spend my entire life training to climb, but I do enjoy climbing. I can do trad, but it's extremely limited. So, when I visit the Red, the climbs within my range are jammed packed and that just ruins my outlook on the place. The routes at my level that aren't packed are spread so far apart, it's difficult for a weekend warrior to get a lot of climbing in. I can't do 5.7 and 5.8 trad on my limited experience, so all those routes are just mocking me because I could probably do them as sport climbs. I would visit far more often if I knew there were 300+ sport routes within my range.
I'm sure there a thousands of people out there with the same attitude as me. They love to climb, but don't have the time to spend every moment in the gym or they live to far away from a crag to train outside enough. We just have to live with being mediocre!
We have money to donate, but aren't going to do so just to support everyone else. The people in charge of the routes at RRG and the climbers who frequent the place clearly don't care if we can climb harder routes or not. So, in return, if we can't visit and have a decent day of climbing, why should we care what happens to the place?
So I say... let the Gorge evolve and quit holding back progress. Bolt the trad areas that see little to no use and revitilize the RRG. Sport climbing is here to stay and will be what saves most crags.