Sport & Trad Closure at Torrent Falls

[calvinivlac]

I think old woman makes some fair observations.

I'm an infrequent visitor to the Red so I don't know Mark that well, but I've climbed at Torrent and eaten at his BBQ.

As an infrequent visitor, I've also missed the details of what he and his family have done for the climbing community. I gather it's been alot. I also feel that reading his initial explanations made me feel he was ranting at the very people who were trying to help, and failing to get that message out to the problem population.

It's a shame that access has to be curtailed because of the behaviour of some problem climbers, but old woman makes a valid point in saying that it's only a problem because it's Mark's backyard. Climbers tend to swear, bring their dogs and do things at other crags and it seems weird to expect them to suddenly act differently at Torrent. Mark's rules are fair, and it's his property, but the expectations and the reality don't seem to make a lot of sense. Furthering that thought, somehow expecting the climbing community to educate itself completely (when we're a fairly loosely organized group to begin with) also may be missing the point.

Torrent is a great place to climb, and I hope some sort of reasonable access can be figured out. I hope I don't have to rent a cabin to climb there; that seems very expensive. Horseshoe Canyon Ranch in AR, HP40 in AL and some other places seem to have made the pay-to-climb model work (and don't break your wallet) so maybe something similar can be done here. You pay a reasonable fee, you sign a waiver, and you're given a copy of the rules. This might help with visitors to the Red. Then again, it may not be worth it to Mark and that would be too bad.

Again, I just feel it's a shame to lose a crag like Torrent and hope we can work something out.

Calvin

[Saxman]

Yeah, but we don't have Mike and his boys walking around with a gun and knife. That is how you keep order with the climbing bums. Hmm, maybe someone should give Mike a call. He might have a cousin who wants to relocate.

[TankAzz]

Yeah, but we don't have Mike and his boys walking around with a gun and knife. That is how you keep order with the climbing bums. Hmm, maybe someone should give Mike a call. He might have a cousin who wants to relocate.

oh my gosh, that is so funny, yet so true...
next time you're at HP and mike stops by your fire ring, ask him to explain his philosophy about "troublemakers." his description of how "there's only one way off this mountain" is enough to instill fear into any climber. that, and the rumor that there are cameras on the property, has been enough to deter me from doing any mischevious activities i might dream up.

[Spragwa]

gretchen!

My thought exactly.

[Huggybone]

Charlie: Two words, "Which lake?" and you get all over me? Are you still pissed cause I hang my biners in the same orientation on my quickdraws?

Piggie- "bring it" means "Come on Punk, lets fight!"

[Wes]

gretchen!

My thought exactly.

Nope. Just another easy trad climbing elitist. Always funny to me that just because people can only climb grades that were considered sorta hard in the 50's, they think they are old school or somehow not one of the new climbers that are part of the problem. Or the "look at me, I am a Trad climber, and therefore somehow cooler then the rest of you". Of course they are only trad cimbers because they suck to much to climb any of the rrg sport routes, but they don't tell you that. And I know all this because I used to be the same way, but then I grew up a little bit, opened my mind, and started trying a bit harder.

[old_woman]

i don't get the gretchen thing. if i'm supposed to be offended, somebody's gonna have to explain first.

wes, i'll tell you i suck. i do. and my knees are going already. but i climb trad because i love it. i also love face climbs, but (a) they are harder and (b) there are too many people at the sport crags. oh and (c) you don't GET anyplace on sport routes.

this is me facing a reality. your turn!!

i'm still not sure what i said that has upset everyone so much. (ok i called pigf*er a moron so i'm ok if he's upset, but what's up the rest of your asses?) i realize that i didn't say it particularly politely (and would like to thank calvinivloc for interpreting with all the niceness that i didn't think was necessary). facts are facts, people. we COULDN'T obey those same rules even at muir. there aren't portalets. it would be silly.

if i owned torrent, i would have closed it long ago, or turned it into an outdoor rock gym. so i'm not criticizing mark; i'm explaining why i think his property did not make an easy crag, for him or us.

Hey old women troll, go back under the bridge.

great argument! thanks for adding some challenge for me!

[the lurkist]

Here is the deal.
We as a community (and I know I am preaching to the choir here. The folks who need to hear this are not on this bbs) failed to meet Mark on his terms. Granted (as somewhat of a vindication to Old Woman) his terms (no peeing/ pooping, no cursing/ yelling, no dogs) did not jive with the standards of behavior found at every other cliff in the Red. We covered all of that several times in other threads. None the less, these were his terms. We, the RRGCC and well meaning members of the community (the Terry in all of us) failed to get the message out to the folks who ultimately fucked it up. Old woman is correct as well in that the cliff being so close to the road and so convenient made it very susceptible to abuse.
Mark should have closed it down awhile back when he first threatened to. The climbing community as it stands now could not rise to his standards of behavior.
I do think, as I said in previous threads, that things could have been different if Mark was willing to more intensively manage the parking, the visitations, etc... (having limits on cars, making all cars park at the via ferrata, etc.... blah, blah...)
Mark heard these ideas and decided that they were not good options for his business (too time intensive, took up good parking for paying visitors to the via ferrata, etc) He opted for the choice having the expectation that general respect and human decency and consideratioin would/should have been the only self policing necessary to maintain the standards of behaviour he demanded.
Obviously, we were not capable of meeting that standard.
Mark's cliff, Mark's rules. We failed.

[old_woman]

thanks, lurkist. i was just thinking that probably a lot of you folks worked hard to prevent this. given that, my "it was never gonna work, what a pseudo crag" must have seemed well, kinda bitchy.

so i'm sorry about that, and particularly to bill strachen (because i at least know him and he works his tail off).

terbie

[pigsteak]

now, about the pigf*er comment....

as long as you are over 50 or older than Ed Mank can you use age and bad knees as an excuse for not trying harder. And no need to jump on Wes' shit. He just stated the other "facts" you want to dismiss. You like easy trad because you have no other options. Climbing harder opens up many doors, period.

So instead of getting on the soap box of trad leads to somewhere (it doesn't ) or it is a more pure form of climbing (it isn't), think a bit. Old woman, do you own a full trad rack and actually lead these lines, or are you top roping them or following someone else's leads? if this is the case, then that is no different than TR'ing a sport line.

Climbing is climbing is climbing......and all equally futile.