To help clear up any misunderstandings and to inform as best I can, here's a synopsis of the Murray Property issue.
Q: What is the Murray Property?
A: It's is a tract of land about 600-800+ acres located on Bald Rock Fork (along the road to the Motherlode, etc.) in Lee County.
Q: Who owns it?
A: Mattie Murray, from Harrodsburg.
Q: Is the RRGCC buying it?
A: We're trying to. We purchased an "option" to purchase the property for $100 that expires September 30, 2003.
Q: What's the option to purchase?
A: That's an agreement between Mattie Murray and the RRGCC that she will sell the property for $325/acre if we come up with the money by September 30, 2003. Basically, the agreement holds the land open until that time. Nobody else can purchase it before then.
Q: Where exactly is the property?
A: That's a tough question. Property in rural areas like this are based on deeds that were written in the 1800's which have only vague descriptions of boundaries. It's not like in cities where every piece of land has been surveyed. It has taken me (John Bronaugh) many trips to the Lee County Clerk's Office to try to sort out all the neighboring deeds and deeds that have been sold and are within the boundaries of the original Murray property. Only a few small tracts have been surveyed within the boundary. Based on my research, it appears that the Murray tract extends from Sore Heel Hollow (the big valley on the right aka Big Dick Lick) to the Arena and on around a bit to the north. It also includes all the land on top of the cliff where Charmane Oil Company is located. There is probably some land on the south side of Bald Rock Fork Road that inclueds the Getaway Crag. The land probably does not include where the Ashland Oil property is (Cave Fork). There is a separate tract that includes Coalbank Hollow (Solar Collector and Dark Side).
Q: Why don't you just have it surveyed?
A: We could and we might, but a survey costs $15,000 or so. The RRGCC didn't think it was worth that money at this point.
Q: What about the oil wells?
A: The Murrays own all the surface and mineral rights, except oil rights. Those are separate and owned by dozens of individuals, all of whom lease to Charmane Oil Company to manage.
Q: What rights do these people or Charmane have?
A: They can do anything necessary to continue operating the oil operations, including drilling new wells, building roads, etc. They have the right to come on the land at any time for oil purposes, but can't prevent the land owner from coming on it either.
Q: Why does the RRGCC want to buy the land?
A: There are many reasons, but foremost, there's a ton of existing climbing on the property and great potential for more. Because Mattie Murray doesn't mind if we climb there for the present, we've been able to enjoy the area without restriction. But if the land is sold to another individual, they could easily keep us off the land. Rather than risking that this happen, the RRGCC sees this as an opportunity to ensure climbing on these crags for the future.
Q: Is there really a need to buy it now?
A: Mattie Murray is old and will die soon. When that happens, the land goes to her two sons who really don't want to keep the property. They will sell it for sure. Yes, it's possible that the subsequent land owners will allow climbing to continue, but we can never be sure. Most land owners don't want climbing to happen on their property for privacy reasons and exposure to liability.
Q: Can the RRGCC afford to buy the Murray property?
A: The RRGCC is a non-profit, volunteer organization that doesn't have the funds sitting in a bank account for a cash purchase, so we'll have to buy it over time like most people do when they buy a house.
Q: Can't the Access Fund help?
A: Yes, we're looking at the AF to do their share, but we know that they're not going to give us all the money we need. They are funded by donations and have a lot of other irons in the fire besides the RRG.
Q: What about other sources such as grants?
A: We're doing what we can to look into that issue as well. Grant writing is a highly specialized skill and to do it properly, we need to hire someone to do this. This will take several thousand dollars and many months or years. Our long term goals include grants, but in the short term, we need to rely on other options as well.
Q: What other options has the RRGCC considered?
A: Everything we could think of including selling off some parcels, putting in a campground, and charging climbers an annual fee to climb there. Of course, we're looking for significant donations by individuals and businesses as well. That will be one of the main focuses of the DerbyFest this year.
Q: What about getting a loan from a bank?
A: Banks will probably not loan money to us unless individuals would agree to be responsible for defaulting on the loan. It's not likely that an individual would risk his/her credit and financial situation for this purchase on behalf of a non profit organization.
Q: What can the RRGCC do then?
A: I have approached the owner and she has agreed to negotiate a deal via owner financing. It will require some money down and payments to be made on a regular basis.
Q: How much are we talking about?
A: No final arrangement has been discussed, but a ballpark figure would be $40,000 down, and payments of about $20,000 per year.
Q: So, to make sure we can purchase the land, we need at least $40,000 by September 30, 2003?
A: Yep. There will be other needs for money too, to pay taxes, get a survey done (if we choose) and if we do any commercial ventures on the property, we'll need money for that infrastructure as well.
Q: How do you plan on raising the initial money?
A: No idea is off the table, but one of the things we'll do is a route auction at DerbyFest where we'll "auction" or sell particular routes for a certain amount of money and a commitment to match that amount to cover mortgage payments in the future. For example, Breakfast Burrito might get auctioned for $250 which would be paid into the RRGCC for the purchase. The bidder would also make that contribution each year thereafter for that amount until the property is fully purchased.
Q: $250 sounds like a lot of money to me.
A: Of course, this is just an example, all donations are appreciated. But if you think about how many times you or your friends climb on the property at the various crags, this amount is less than the annual dues at a climbing gym. If you really can't help out financially, then being a committed volunteer is a welcome contribution too.
Q: If the RRGCC buys the property, are they going to kick me off if I'm not a member?
A: In an ideal world, we'd let anybody go there for free. Unfortunately, it isn't an ideal world. If it is in the best interest of climbers to purchase the land, and charging a fee is the best way to get funds to make the payments, then we would have an obligation to charge some fee. This decision isn't easy, but if you imagine yourself trying to buy land for the benefit of others (and you aren't independently wealthy), then it is fair for those folks to bear their share of the obligation. It's no different if you went to a climbing gym, climbed at Torrent, or wanted to camp at Miquel's. You should pay to play.
Q: What about turning the land over (via a re-sale at fair market price) to the Forest Service?
A: That is a possible option, but the Task Force doesn't feel that climbers' privelege to climb on FS property is secure enough at this point to see that as an immediate option. Private ownership by the RRGCC seems better in the short run. We can always revisit this idea down the road if things change.
Q: What is the RRGCC doing to get the word out about the purchase.
A: We just formed the Murray Property Task Force and have had several meetings about it recently. Our goals exceed our capacity right now due to lack of funds and volunteers, however, we would like to have digital photos of every route on the Murray property by the DerbyFest and have them on a PowerPoint presentation for the auction and to educate climbers about this fantastic opportunity. In addition, we'd like Ray to add all the photos to his site as well and to describe (or at least list) all the routes we know of. Ray has one of the most effective means to get the information to climbers about the area and its routes. His efforts will go a long way toward securing access for climbers to this amazing area.
Q: What can I do to help?
A: First, think seriously about your role in the big picture of climbing in the Red. There are those who give more than they take, and those that take more than they give. You have to weigh how much climbing in the Red, and specifically, the Southern Region, means to you. For me, it's a fantastic area for sport climbing at all levels and has an untapped potential for many fine trad lines too. I would guess that %50 of the easier sport routes in the Red are on the Murray property. Many of the others are also on private land (Roadside, the Zoo and Torrent, eg.) That's something we just can't get in the National Forest itself. Second, the number of high quality difficult routes at the Solar/Dark Side area is hard to match anywhere in the Red. Finally, I think if the RRGCC can take this step, it will propel our ability to do similar things in the future (the more powerful the organization, the more grants we'll be able to secure in the future).
Q: Okay, I agree. Now what?
A: Be ready to gladly donate money and time to the cause. Don't depend on the RRGCC volunteers to lead the way...be the volunteer that does the leading. We need help now more than ever from licking stamps to meeting with representatives of the federal government. Join the RRGCC, come the the DerbyFest, be actively informed, make suggestions, implement those suggestions, take responsibility for what happens, don't just be a spectator.
Q: Anything else?
A: Yes. Do me a favor. When you read this post and don't understand something or question it, just respond with your questions. Don't go on a rant. It's a big time waster for me to sort through all the chaff to address the serious issues. I would ask the moderator to just move the "chaff" responses to another topic area.
Johnny
Murray Property Update
wow johnny, thanks for all of this info, it answers all of my questions! i am more than willing to donate what i can...do i have to wait until Derbyfest, or can i send a donation right now, to the rrgcc? this is a great plan, and i hope it works out. i know i climb in the southern region more than any other area at the red, so i'll try to do my part....
Impressive work John! I have one question(or questions on one topic)
How is it that other individuals can own the oil rights on the Murray property? Did the Murray's sell the oil rights at some time? What keeps the oil company from putting up an oil well wherever they please? I guess this doesn't matter to the Murrays since they don't live there, but I would hate to live there and have the oil company decide to put a rig in my front lawn. I'm just trying to understand the whole oil situation.
How is it that other individuals can own the oil rights on the Murray property? Did the Murray's sell the oil rights at some time? What keeps the oil company from putting up an oil well wherever they please? I guess this doesn't matter to the Murrays since they don't live there, but I would hate to live there and have the oil company decide to put a rig in my front lawn. I'm just trying to understand the whole oil situation.
I can do all things through Christ who strengthen's me.
Thats great John! for those who didn't know many of the details, that really describes the whole situation well. I will try to do my best, being a poor college student who is getting married soon. How much more potential do you think there is for more sport lines in this area. This may help encourage people if they know that it is far from being tapped of all its potential. Also do you know approximatly how many routes both trad and sport this area includes. I forget the figures.
Living the dream
Thanks for the responses. Here's a go at your questions...
1. If people donate money and in the end there isn't enough to buy the property, do they get their money back? No. The donations would be just that. If your were to get your money back it would be viewed as a loan which would have implications for the IRS and it isn't good to accept donations with strings on them from the RRGCC's perspective. I don't anticipate that we couldn't get enough money to make the initial investment. The bigger risk is that if the RRGCC defaults on the loan. The owner could then repo the land, sell it to cover the mortgage, and if there is anything left over, it would go to the RRGCC.
2. do i have to wait until Derbyfest, or can i send a donation right now, to the rrgcc? You can send it right now if you like. Please earmark what it's for so we can give you credit and keep track of the donations for Murray.
3. How is it that other individuals can own the oil rights on the Murray property? Did the Murray's sell the oil rights at some time? What keeps the oil company from putting up an oil well wherever they please? The oil rights were segregated a long time ago. The Murrays retain some of these oil rights, but that's not part of the deal. The oil well can put up a well most everywhere they want, as long as it doesn't interfere significantly with the surface rights owner. There's some gray area there for sure.
4. I don't understand wht the route auction is. If some one buys a route, does that mean they own it? No. The relationship to the route is just a fun way to think about using your donation to the overall purchase. I think if on visualizes the value of a single route and then that is multiplied by the number of routes, then it's easy to justify why we want to purchase the property and see it's value to the climbing community as a whole.
5. Also do you know approximatly how many routes both trad and sport this area includes. Ballpark about 250 sport routes and maybe 50 trad. I'm hoping Ray's database will help us out with the actual numbers.
1. If people donate money and in the end there isn't enough to buy the property, do they get their money back? No. The donations would be just that. If your were to get your money back it would be viewed as a loan which would have implications for the IRS and it isn't good to accept donations with strings on them from the RRGCC's perspective. I don't anticipate that we couldn't get enough money to make the initial investment. The bigger risk is that if the RRGCC defaults on the loan. The owner could then repo the land, sell it to cover the mortgage, and if there is anything left over, it would go to the RRGCC.
2. do i have to wait until Derbyfest, or can i send a donation right now, to the rrgcc? You can send it right now if you like. Please earmark what it's for so we can give you credit and keep track of the donations for Murray.
3. How is it that other individuals can own the oil rights on the Murray property? Did the Murray's sell the oil rights at some time? What keeps the oil company from putting up an oil well wherever they please? The oil rights were segregated a long time ago. The Murrays retain some of these oil rights, but that's not part of the deal. The oil well can put up a well most everywhere they want, as long as it doesn't interfere significantly with the surface rights owner. There's some gray area there for sure.
4. I don't understand wht the route auction is. If some one buys a route, does that mean they own it? No. The relationship to the route is just a fun way to think about using your donation to the overall purchase. I think if on visualizes the value of a single route and then that is multiplied by the number of routes, then it's easy to justify why we want to purchase the property and see it's value to the climbing community as a whole.
5. Also do you know approximatly how many routes both trad and sport this area includes. Ballpark about 250 sport routes and maybe 50 trad. I'm hoping Ray's database will help us out with the actual numbers.