RRC Archives

while perusing the Gunks.com website, i found the following in a discussion of how to use their anchors...

"The picture below shows how simply one can rappel off an anchor that is being used for top-roping without having to use the top-roper's gear." --



these are not metolious rap hangers, rather they're stainless steel Fixe hangers with quick links -- yet the gunks.com website is suggesting that it is ok to set up a rap station directly through the hangers... this when there are two parties using the same anchor (one TRing through the quick links and one rapping off...) -- this seems "odd" to me... but I'm no expert. what'cha think?

(ya, the gunks is all trad, but this discussion is about bolts per se...)

The only thing I see wrong is the top ropers bypassed the chains but it looks like the links at the end of the chains may be old and worn. As far as the rap set up ,it's Ok as long as you arent right at the hangers causing an american triangle. I wouldn't want to be rapping when the toproper falls either. Courtesy says to wait.
Is the Gunks that crowded that this scenario is common?

rapping through the hangers is a good way to get your rope stuck. Not on that particular set up, but if the rope rests against the rock at all when it's through the hangers, it can happen. I learned this the hard way....

As to doing it while there is a TR set up, it's weird, but nothing jumps out at me as dangerous per se.

Why would this even need to be done? Are these trade routes with people ascending and descending at the same time? Whatever you do, don't ask Buster for advice on how to do this.

This is slightly off the subject, but i suppose still related... why are so many anchors at the red set up without chains, thus forcing american death triangles? Would it really be that much more expensive and difficult to add some chains to the anchor to reduce the loading?

you are welcome to add chains. Thanks!

i'm pretty sure that there aren't rap stations/anchors at the tops of every route in the gunks...plus i think it gets really crowded at some places there. so yeah, i bet this is something that needs to be done on a fairly regular basis. the only weird thing is that the tr is threaded through the chains and the lockers...i'm not sure why anyone would do that unless they're going to have a complete jerry clean the anchors...so they wouldn't have to untie at all i guess?

pete, i'd really love to help you out a little further. maybe you could send your hubbie, along with me, to do a little reconnaissance investigation this summer. 2 or 3 weeks would be plenty of time...plus i can send you daily emails on our progress of climbing, drinking, and frequenting all the gentlemans clubs in new paltz. only because i like you though.

The forces in the American Death triangle are not all that bad. It just has this bad rap. The main reason not to use the American Triangle is because of the inward force on the gear. This could pull some types of protection out. The force is higher, with today’s bolts; it doesn't come close to there breaking strength.

As for this set-up, I would say totally wrong. When you pull the ropes you are wearing out the hangers. Why not wear out the quick links. You file down the hangers so that eventually someone will rappel off and there rope will cut.

So to solve the problem, The tope rope should be on an equalized cordalett and the rappel should be on the quick links.

"american death triangle" is irrelevant if you're just rapping off of bolts.

I'm surprised to even see this from the gunks. last time I was at the gunks there were only about 8 bolts in the entire place. It would be cool if they've moved to bolted rap anchors, because they were killing all the trees with their slings, and I hated rapping off of dead trees on crusty slings...

I went to the Gunks last fall. There are a lot of times when people use the same anchors. Their routes tend to wander and criss-cross. There are also many multi pitch routes where you have to rap down thru several stations, but due to high traffic the next party is already climbing when you are trying to get down. Hence the above scenario.

correct me if I am wrong, but everyone of you chuffers is using the term "american death triangle" incorrectly. the term came from back in the day when folks would loop a sinlge piece of webbing thru to anchor points, and then tie it off in a water knot. then this single loop of webbing would be clipped to rap.

this caused a lateral pull between the two anchors, thereby lessening it's strength. also, you in essence were lowering from a single loop of webbing that was getting stressed in multiple directions.

hanging two draws on two seperate bolts at an anchor station (with or without chains) does not constitute an "american death traingle".

thank you for your input.