For those of you who climb at Indian Creek, check out this announcement. The Red River Gorge is not the only area at risk of climbing closures.
http://www.yourclimbing.com/story-when_ ... ek_at_risk
Indian Creek at Risk!
Indian Creek at Risk!
Jesus only knows that she tries too hard. She's only trying to keep the sky from falling.
-Everlast
-Everlast
The link worked for me.
You could also go to www.friendsofindiancreek.org for some excellent information.
You could also go to www.friendsofindiancreek.org for some excellent information.
kneebar and other regulars at the creek....I have a question or two..
I was just talking to a couple who spent several weeks in the Creek. From what they said, the popular walls are far from "pristine" and a "wilderness" experience. The popular climbs had lines waiting for a burn on them. Is the creek becoming just like the red, with way too many folks? would a limit on the number of guests help things?
I was just talking to a couple who spent several weeks in the Creek. From what they said, the popular walls are far from "pristine" and a "wilderness" experience. The popular climbs had lines waiting for a burn on them. Is the creek becoming just like the red, with way too many folks? would a limit on the number of guests help things?
Last edited by pigsteak on Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
Piggie, are you talking about Ryan and Virginia?
I would have to say that the place is way too crowded. If I'm there over the weekend we don't plan on climbing at any of the major walls because they are way too crowded. The part that sucks the most is that the crowds act like sport climbers and don't roll in until around 10:30, 11:00, maybe 11:30. The other issue is that because the routes are pretty consistent in width throughout, they mandate a lot of gear and so people that don't have big racks team up with others and soon the crowds become massive, with ropes never coming down from routes.
I also blame "Splitter Camps" put on by Montrail. I spoke with Malcom Daly about it, who's the owner of Trango and helps put it on. Montrail adamently states that they only send a group of 4 climbers and a guide to a wall (small print also includes camerament and riggers, an extra 2-4 guys), but Sarah and I were at a pretty obscure area (of course) and 2 guides and 12 climbers came up. 4 of the guys had freshly ironed collared-shirts and khakis on, but that's besides the point. THe guides were local to Castle Rock (just outside Moab) and were assholes. We had already been climbing at the wall and were thinking about what to get on next so we asked them what they planned on getting on and they said "get on whatever you can because we are taking the rest and our ropes are staying up for the rest of the day." The group had trash all over the place and didn't stick to the trails very well. Also, several routes were TRed through the anchors, which despite how people feel about it, is a big NO NO in the Creek due to the soft rock and anchor replacement. My biggest problem with the guided group was the way the guides were teaching their clients. It was a very "who gives a shit" attitude, and did not in any way seem to want to preserve the creek, and had this who cares if we trash it mentality. If this is the first experience for these guided climbers for climbing outdoors, or even just at the Creek, they are receiving a bad message right from the start when they are most impressionable.
I don't think that you could limit the number of "guests" there because the road is a through way to get into the Canyonlands so I'm not sure how you could possibly regulate it. And while I am a broke ass climbing bum, I think the Creek may need to become a "pay to play" climbing area. The coalition there - Friends of Indian Creek- had done a lot to try and educate climbers into creating less impact but the bottom line is many people there just do not care. There are free WAG (poop) bags that people do not use, dogs literally outnumber people (but more importantly disturb cattle), trails are getting eroded, and climbers are blatently camping where they should not be, i.e., on private land next to a sign that says "NO CAMPING Next 1/2mile". The Creek is one of my favorite places to climb and I'm afraid with the current trend we will lose it. It's kind of like Torrent man, if we climbers can't regulate ourselves, despite plenty of warnings and opportunities to do so, someone's going to step in and shut it down. (No offense Mark, I love you guys and I support your decision 100%). If a fee system kept the Creek open and thinned down some of the crowds, I would be in favor of it, as long as the fees were climber related - trail work/maintenance, anchor replacement, WAG bags, etc. My fear though is that a fee system wouldn't really change any of the environmental concerns about dogs chasing cattle, trails, people shitting on the ground, and anchor replacement.
I would have to say that the place is way too crowded. If I'm there over the weekend we don't plan on climbing at any of the major walls because they are way too crowded. The part that sucks the most is that the crowds act like sport climbers and don't roll in until around 10:30, 11:00, maybe 11:30. The other issue is that because the routes are pretty consistent in width throughout, they mandate a lot of gear and so people that don't have big racks team up with others and soon the crowds become massive, with ropes never coming down from routes.
I also blame "Splitter Camps" put on by Montrail. I spoke with Malcom Daly about it, who's the owner of Trango and helps put it on. Montrail adamently states that they only send a group of 4 climbers and a guide to a wall (small print also includes camerament and riggers, an extra 2-4 guys), but Sarah and I were at a pretty obscure area (of course) and 2 guides and 12 climbers came up. 4 of the guys had freshly ironed collared-shirts and khakis on, but that's besides the point. THe guides were local to Castle Rock (just outside Moab) and were assholes. We had already been climbing at the wall and were thinking about what to get on next so we asked them what they planned on getting on and they said "get on whatever you can because we are taking the rest and our ropes are staying up for the rest of the day." The group had trash all over the place and didn't stick to the trails very well. Also, several routes were TRed through the anchors, which despite how people feel about it, is a big NO NO in the Creek due to the soft rock and anchor replacement. My biggest problem with the guided group was the way the guides were teaching their clients. It was a very "who gives a shit" attitude, and did not in any way seem to want to preserve the creek, and had this who cares if we trash it mentality. If this is the first experience for these guided climbers for climbing outdoors, or even just at the Creek, they are receiving a bad message right from the start when they are most impressionable.
I don't think that you could limit the number of "guests" there because the road is a through way to get into the Canyonlands so I'm not sure how you could possibly regulate it. And while I am a broke ass climbing bum, I think the Creek may need to become a "pay to play" climbing area. The coalition there - Friends of Indian Creek- had done a lot to try and educate climbers into creating less impact but the bottom line is many people there just do not care. There are free WAG (poop) bags that people do not use, dogs literally outnumber people (but more importantly disturb cattle), trails are getting eroded, and climbers are blatently camping where they should not be, i.e., on private land next to a sign that says "NO CAMPING Next 1/2mile". The Creek is one of my favorite places to climb and I'm afraid with the current trend we will lose it. It's kind of like Torrent man, if we climbers can't regulate ourselves, despite plenty of warnings and opportunities to do so, someone's going to step in and shut it down. (No offense Mark, I love you guys and I support your decision 100%). If a fee system kept the Creek open and thinned down some of the crowds, I would be in favor of it, as long as the fees were climber related - trail work/maintenance, anchor replacement, WAG bags, etc. My fear though is that a fee system wouldn't really change any of the environmental concerns about dogs chasing cattle, trails, people shitting on the ground, and anchor replacement.
That sucks about the rude guides, Haas. Were they with a professional guiding company near Castle Rock? If they were, what about getting in touch with someone in charge there and submitting a formal complaint? It would be nice to a) see them fired if they won't change their ways, or b) see the company educate their guides about crag etiquette that will help preserve access.
"I snatched defeat from the jaws of victory." --Paul
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(Emails > PMs)
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(Emails > PMs)