RRGCC & Forest Service News

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If you don't regularly check the RRGCC website you might want to visit http://www.rrgcc.org/ for some important news about the organization and recent Forest Service actions.

[TrueNorth]

A couple of days ago I read a quote from Warren E. Burger. When he was a Circuit Courts of Appears Judge - nine months before being named Chief Justice of the United States, he stated:

"A court which has final and unreviewable needs more careful scrutiny than any other. Unreviewable power in the most likely to self-indulge itself and least likely to engage in dispassionate self-analysis...In a country likes ours, no public institution, or the people who operate it, can be above public debate" Warren E. Burger Sept 4, 1968

Sometimes the craziest things stimulate my thought process.

It is my understanding seats on the RRGCC board will soon be vacated. Is there any chance three of the seven seats (Is there seven seats?) could be filled with elected members from and by the climbing community? And could at least one of these seats be filled by an election during the upcoming Roctoberfest?

And can or has a deed restriction been added to the RRGCC owned property to insure climbers will have access to this land regardless to who owns this land in the future?

Just as a side note: I miss Johnny's straight forward debate, Shannon's lengthy (yet well thought out) responses and JR's (Joe H) endless nipping and bantering.

Over the past years it seems, we (the climbing community) recognized the weaknesses of the RRGCC. Weaknesses we (The RRGCC) were reluctant to admit to. Members of this forum (including me) were quick to expose these issues and take the RRGCC to task. By doing so, we may have went through a cleansing process. However on the other hand, did we kill the perception of momentum and activism, which is so vital to this type of organization?

Mayor changes are about to unfold within the administration of the Forest Service. A merger of districts have been discussed if not approved. Long time employees are looking at retirement. Key individuals are being reasigned. Slightly less that 1 million dollars has been allocated to buy land surrounding the Red River Gorge area. They may be interested in buying the Southern Region. The LAC process is underway and eventually it will become either a positive or negitive political issue to deal with.

If we could start from scratch and based on our expierences, what climber based political forum, activism group and/or organization is best to deal with these issues?

Am I out of touch?
Members of this forum, please do not suggest I post these questions on the RRGCC's site. I want to hear comments from you.

[Crankmas]

I miss Joe too,

[Namaste]

Me too

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It is my understanding seats on the RRGCC board will soon be vacated. Is there any chance three of the seven seats (Is there seven seats?) could be filled with elected members from and by the climbing community? And could at least one of these seats be filled by an election during the upcoming Roctoberfest?

Yes, there are seven RRGCC Board positions. The Bylaws of the organization require Board members to have been an RRGCC member for at least one year prior to their election. The way the organization is currently set up new Board members are elected by those currently sitting on the Board. The term of each Board member is three years but no Board member may serve more than two consecutive terms without leaving the Board for a period of one year.

Serving on the RRGCC Board is soley on a volunteer basis and requires a significant commitment of time. Any member that would like to volunteer for serving on the Board only needs to make known their interest. Preference may be given to members who have already shown a significant commitment to the RRGCC through volunteer work on committees, trail days, events, and the Local Area Representatives Network or from serving on the Climbing Advisory Council.

And can or has a deed restriction been added to the RRGCC owned property to insure climbers will have access to this land regardless to who owns this land in the future?

This question will need to be researched before an answer can be posted.

Over the past years it seems, we (the climbing community) recognized the weaknesses of the RRGCC. Weaknesses we (The RRGCC) were reluctant to admit to. Members of this forum (including me) were quick to expose these issues and take the RRGCC to task. By doing so, we may have went through a cleansing process. However on the other hand, did we kill the perception of momentum and activism, which is so vital to this type of organization?

Climbers involvement and efforts in LAC, in Rap n' Rawkus, and in the organization of the upcoming Johnny & Alex Crag Day are examples of continued momentum and activism. The RRGCC's adoption of Bylaws, a Conflict of Interest Policy, and application to the IRS for tax exempt recognization are significant steps that have been taken over the last year to address the weaknesses of the organization. Still there is much work to be done and increased climber involvement and activism is needed for the growth of the organization.

Mayor changes are about to unfold within the administration of the Forest Service. A merger of districts have been discussed if not approved. Long time employees are looking at retirement. Key individuals are being reasigned. Slightly less that 1 million dollars has been allocated to buy land surrounding the Red River Gorge area. They may be interested in buying the Southern Region. The LAC process is underway and eventually it will become either a positive or negitive political issue to deal with.

At the last LAC meeting the Forest Service expressed that their land purchasing priority is for properties either within or adjacent to the designated Red River Gorge areas (e.g. Clifty Wilderness, Geological Area, & Archaeological District). It has also been clear throughout the LAC process that the Forest Service values climber participation and involvement with the Agency. The RRGCC and the Access Fund do communicate concerning both local and national Forest Service issues.

If we could start from scratch and based on our expierences, what climber based political forum, activism group and/or organization is best to deal with these issues?

This is certainly an interesting question considering the big picture of climbing access issues. It would seem that local organization and activism is effective for many issues but a national forum and group presence is also needed when dealing with a large Federal agency such as the Forest Service. Certainly there is much room for improvement at both levels as evidenced by the recent Cave Rock decision and the current Oak Flat controversy http://www.accessfund.org/AFPerspective/

Bill Strachan, President
RRGCC

[TrueNorth]

Thanks for the response. Two years ago this thread would have quickly became a hot bed for conversation and debate. I’m aware and very appreciative of your efforts and support of this and other climbing areas. I’m trying to get my arms around the apparent lack of passion from the climbing community.

Do we feel comfortable, now that several climbing areas have been purchased by climber friendly land owners? Or is there a disconnect, established by the structure of the RRGCC that isolates the RRGCC Board from the individual climber? Does the climbing community as a whole feel they have a voice within the RRGCC?

You laid out how board members are currently selected. The thrust of my question was to explore the possibilities of allowing voting rights to the individual members of the RRGCC. If the minority of the board seats where held by members elected by the members, would this not create a means of true representation? This still allows the majority to be controlled by the permanent board. If an elected member proves themselves a quality board member, and a permanent seat opens, then name the elected member to the permanent seat and allow the members to elect a new individual to the empty chair.

I know this is different from the current structure. Can not the board modify the current structure and bylaws? Why is the board reluctant to allow its members this type of representation? With this feeling of representation, would individual members become more active?

We need to be careful of pointing to the outpouring of support for Johnny and Alex as support for the RRCCC. You may be correct. However the emotions associated with this issue may be too raw for a proper analysis.

More importantly, why has this thread laid dormant, with little or no debate. Am I asking for something the climbing community doesn’t want or care about?

Like I said earlier, maybe I'm out of touch.

[RRO]

I think the election of 1-2 board members is something to look into and discuss. If I am not mistaken groups like the Sierra Club and the Access Fund hold elections for board seats. I agree that doing so would give the general climbing community more of a voice and would allow fresh ideas to be heard. A boardroom needs shaken up from time to time. I agree there would need to be certain qualifications such as time availability, years in the RRGCC/possible mandatory service on a counsel and so on.

What are some downsides to doing this? Does anyone have experience with non-profit groups that have had general elected seats?

Whether we want to admit it or not, private climbing land is something that has to continue to grow and be supported. Seems to be a trend all over the country and a trend in the right direction. It’s a shame that we have to worry about our public lands being taken away from us as outdoor recreation users but it’s the facts. The land in the FS is such an unknown. You cant apply all your man power and $ to deal with the FS and hope that it comes out in your favor? But as an advocacy group started to protect our rights to climb in the RRG this is a battle that has to be fought. Here’s the crux, while doing this still paying for a very large mortgage, managing several hundred acres, fighting access battles with the SR land as well. One nice thing about fighting the battle in the SR, its a much safer bet. The RRGCC either has enough money and members to pay for it or it loses it and we all lose out, business and climbers alike. Both areas need addressed but it takes community involvement and money to do it.

I’m not sure if the general climbing public really sees what could happen with the LAC process and the new "labels" the gorge has been granted and how it will affect climbing areas (sky bridge as the most recent). How do you get that word out without sounding like you are crying wolf all the time? Is there enough information out there for everyone to see? Is it being presented in a way that appeals to the target audience?

How does the deed restriction work? I am very interested in hearing about this as well.

[meetVA]

True North, in your vision, how would you see an election running? Who would get to vote?

Personally I think you would need to be a member of the RRGCC to vote.

There are a lot of access issues (current to future) to be watched in the Gorge and although Bill is on top of it, he needs help too.

[rhunt]

I’m not sure if the general climbing public really sees what could happen with the LAC process and the new "labels" the gorge has been granted and how it will affect climbing areas (sky bridge as the most recent). How do you get that word out without sounding like you are crying wolf all the time? Is there enough information out there for everyone to see? Is it being presented in a way that appeals to the target audience?

I've been mindful of RRG access issues and involved in the RRGCC since 1998. All along I wondered why not many other climbers seem very concern that the Forest service could close or restrict much of the climbing in the DBNF. (At least that is how it was in the late 90's and early 2000's.) In 1998 I went to Hueco in the Spring(March). I had a wonderful trip, it was a trip I had been dreaming about since I first learned about bouldering and Hueco. In Sept of the same year(1998) the State of Texas imposed its restrictions on Hueco and in my mind Heuco will never be the same experience(for me) again. Local climbers where working hard to stop the restrictions yet not hard enough. Around the same time I started to read and hear more about potential closures and restrictions at the RRG and thought, shit, the same thing could happen here at my home crag. That is why I got involved in the RRGCC.

I think the general RRG climbing public needs to experience more closures and restrictions before they will care enough to get involved. Right now they only want to cry and fight about power drama in the RRGCC and not fight and cry about the real issues.

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I personally feel that RRGCC Board members do not need to be directly elected to be representative of the climbing community. As long as a Board member is actively involved in the Red River Gorge climbing community, has an interest in and some knowledge about RRG climbing issues, and shows a willingness to listen to the views of other climbers, they should be able to fairly represent climbers in general. I consider seeking a Board position more like applying for a job than seeking political office. What is most important for an RRGCC Board member is committment to the access mission of the organization and setting aside the time to do Board work. Secondary considerations may include personal or professional experience such as previous non-profit work or legal, accounting, or management skills. That said, I would point out that three Board members previously served as generally elected members of the Climbing Advisory Council, myself, Tim Powers, and for his short time on the Board, Wes Allen. I think that this is a tradition that needs to be continued and expanded on but that is not to say that all Board members need to have served on the CAC.

Climber activism, whether it be involvement in an RRGCC event, LAC, Crag Day, or climber purchase of property to secure access, has at its root a passion for climbing in the Red River Gorge area. That is what WE need more of, the involvement of people who have a passion for Red River climbing.