do terms even matter anymore?

Post by **pigsteak** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:44 pm

sorry to beat this dead horse, but I am seriously confused, and would appreciate feedback.

i was at roadside sunday, and this 14 year old is belaying his dad on toprope. as his dad nears the top of the climb, the kid yells up, "just a few more moves, and you have redpointed it dad!" ( the dad was on a sport route, fyi)

later on, I saw this lad on 5.12's, so I know he can climb.

my question. is top roping a climb now considered a "redpoint"?

someone told me "if they are happy with it, then let it go"....but somehow I can not. seems to be if our community does not have mutually accepted terminology, then it becomes impossible to communicate...

I never, ever will consider a top rope (when leading is possible) send as a redpoint. am I missing something?

Post by **RTimm** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:01 pm

My 2 cents...You have to lead it to redpoint it. However, I will not argue with someone over it, b/c after all, it is just a word. How about this situation: I belay my parnter on a climb, then I climb it with no falls on lead. I call this an onsight. Do you? Your thoughts...

Post by **SikMonkey** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:05 pm

The problem with the whole terminology thing is that the confusion grows with every new person that dons a pair of climbing shoes because you will always have two groups of people: the ones who care and the ones who don't. Personally, I do care, but I have long since given up trying to "correct" people when I hear them calling a clean TR send a redpoint or some other such nonsense. Etc, etc. So you can put me in the boat of "If they are happy with it....".

Mj

Post by **pigsteak** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:12 pm

sik,
as elder statesmen in the community, do we have any responsibility to keep the proper terms flowing?

rtimm,
I would not consider your send an onsight. in its original meaning, any prior knowledge of a route would not allow you to on sight it. sunday, I watched 3 people on this route, and then got on it for the first time. in my head, I was going for a flash, not an onsight....

I guess i am sensitive to this because a few years back I worked in a gym. we had a rule that a person had to be able to climb 5.10 clean on toprope before taking our lead class. kids would come to the desk, say they climbed a 5.10, and were ready to lead. after a bunch of questions, come to find out they had hung half dozen times up the route, but in their minds that was clean cause they did all the moves. terms do matter....

Post by **SikMonkey** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:20 pm

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with you for sure. The problem is that to keep the terminology flowing, one would spend more time trying to correct people who are misusing the terms than they would actually climbing. The RRGCC would have to start a whole new branch to handle it all.

Mj

Post by **pigsteak** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:29 pm

lol...true enough.

I just am amazed when people come on here and say "it doesn't matter"...
yes, it does matter..not for spray purposes, not for self glory, but to understand each other when communicating.

if I told someone I did this really cool trad line, but I had actually pulled on the gear, I am betting those who had climbed the route clean (or were trying to) would want this bit of information before asking me for beta.

like it or not, all sports have "rules" and a set terminology. if you do an ollie on your board, wanna bet the boarders have an image in their mind what that is...its not "whatever feels good to you"

this whole "climb for yourself" mantra that people chant is so overdone.

Post by **SikMonkey** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:37 pm

Well, you are correct up to a point. All sports do have rules and set terminology, but for most of us this is not an "organized" sport, it's a recreational one. Only those of us who are sponsored or participate in climbing comps are actually "playing" for someone. THAT'S when the terminology DOES matter. So I still say you should "climb for yourself" and not compare yourself or your accomplishments to what someone else does unless that's what motivates you. Everyone climbs for different reasons so again you can group the people into the two categories listed above. For me, I do care, but I have given up on trying to teach the language.

Mj

Post by **SikMonkey** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:43 pm

p.s. - it frustrates me to no end when someone says "I did such and such route", only to find out they B-T-B'd it.

Mj

Post by **RTimm** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:05 pm

You keep using the word "did" like it is a coined climbing term. There is no way you can tell people not to use the term "did". What does "did" mean to you? One fall, two falls, redpoint, flash, onsight, etc? I think it is each person's responsibility to ask, "So, you did the route, huh? Tell me about it. Did you fall, aid, etc?" I think "did" and "got on" mean the same thing. Are you saying "did" means to you onsight, redpoint, pink point, etc.?

Post by **captain static** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:13 pm

After considering this thread I wondered, "Is there a Climbing For Dummies book yet?" So I typed that into Google and this is what came up as the first hit - http://climbaz.com/service/dummy.html