Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

[Artsay]

Since the "CREW" claims they will clean draws on routes that have been on too long (for a time period they have seemingly decided on), I'm interested in hearing how long folks work a project route for. Since a lot of us work for a living and only climb weekends (and some only 1 day a weekend), I broke the poll up by weeks since that's how long the draws will have to stay up for. Any tips on poll changes just holler...

[tbwilsonky]

there should be a lottery at the start of each season to see who wins 'project passes'. if you are selected you will receive two (2) weeks of project draws to be placed on the route of your choice. during said time you may choose three (3) other individuals to project your route as any additional people in the que might hinder the efficacy of your attempts. when said time is up your pass goes back into the pool for a new selection. previous winners MAY REENTER the pool, but only if they have a signed affidavit from three (3) people (who CANNOT be a fellow 'projector') who will testify to their tenacity and commitment to excellence.

problem solved. you're welcome.

[the lurkist]

How about no project draws. I don't want to climb on anyone else's gear. I would prefer to climb on my own draws. Why can't we put up and take down our draws each day? It is the leaving of draws and often the abandonment of draws that have created the hazard. Gear that has no ownership has no one to monitor it. I think this accepted practice of leaving draws has encouraged the belief that these left draws are "safe" and can be used without forethought to whether they could potentially be a hazard. I realize that you aren't suggesting you would be leaving draws ad infinitum or that your draws would be left with out oversight, but among younger less experienced climbers who, as many iterations of accidents have taught us, don't have the mentorship to teach them proper cliff etiquette and safety- mind sensibilities, they do adopt the belief and habit that hanging draws are as infallible as bolts. We know this isn't the case. I think, as a community that has to not encourage unsafe behavior, not having any fixed draws is the reasonable thing to do. You put them up and take them down the same day.

[rhunt]

For as long as it takes. It is up to ME not YOU to decide if the gear I am climbing on is safe! That is the whole problem with the PD debate. The people who put up the PD and the people who took them down are no different - you are both the "CREW" Both of you took the decision away from individual climbers the ability to discern for themselves what is safe and what is not. You both have created a very dangerous precedent.
As soon as people start getting hurt from clipping fix gear that they assume the "local climbing community - CREW" were responsible for taking care of, law suits will start to happen and land owners, included the RRGCC will be forced to close cliffs.

[the lurkist]

For as long as it takes.

Sorry, Rob. Could you clarify what you mean by this. I think I understand your point that fixed gear is creating a bad precedent. Am I reading you right?

[climb2core]

3 Days.

Logic:
If you can't send your project of 3 days of climbing in a row, you will need a rest day. At the end of your 3rd day, clean your draws. Odds are, some one else will have put up new project draws when you get back and you can climb on their gear for a few days. This will ensure draws are changed out on a regular basis, minimize the wear and tear on your project set, and provide an opportunity to inspect your gear.

It also happens to be the length of a 3 day week end.

Also, PD's are here to stay in some format. We elect officials in our democratic system that are supposed to represent our best interests. I say we leave it up to the FA crew to determine how to handle them. They seem to have come to consensus on how to safely bolt, so why not how determine how to use PD's. To be part of the group you would have to have put up at least 10 routes and have been bolting for at least 5 years. I don't think asking every person who climbs in the Red is the best way to do it. It just doesn't seem like the best idea to give equal say to anyone that has ever step foot in the Red.

We could come up with a short list pretty easy who should be included...

Personally, I think the FA should determine if the route they bolted is eligible for PD's and then apply the steepness format to determine what type of set up it gets. The routes that are not eligible would then fall in the 3 day project draw rule.

[tbwilsonky]

Both of you took the decision away from individual climbers the ability to discern for themselves what is safe and what is not.

...

[Rotarypwr345704]

How about no project draws. I don't want to climb on anyone else's gear. I would prefer to climb on my own draws. Why can't we put up and take down our draws each day? It is the leaving of draws and often the abandonment of draws that have created the hazard. Gear that has no ownership has no one to monitor it. I think this accepted practice of leaving draws has encouraged the belief that these left draws are "safe" and can be used without forethought to whether they could potentially be a hazard. I realize that you aren't suggesting you would be leaving draws ad infinitum or that your draws would be left with out oversight, but among younger less experienced climbers who, as many iterations of accidents have taught us, don't have the mentorship to teach them proper cliff etiquette and safety- mind sensibilities, they do adopt the belief and habit that hanging draws are as infallible as bolts. We know this isn't the case. I think, as a community that has to not encourage unsafe behavior, not having any fixed draws is the reasonable thing to do. You put them up and take them down the same day.

AGREED. My head is going to blow with all this bickering back and forth. Draws left should be considered abandoned.

[EricDorsey]

Sweet, so free for all on any hanging draws in the red then? I could use a rack of 200 sharp quickdraws...

[Rotarypwr345704]

Sweet, so free for all on any hanging draws in the red then? I could use a rack of 200 sharp quickdraws...

Thank you for being a smartass and then disproving your own point all at the same time! If they're all sharp, why would you want them on the wall? So do I think hanging draws should be stripped? Well since you're not very bright and need things explained: Yes.