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The bolt side biner of a Camp quickdraw failed at Military this past Friday. (The climber decked from the first bolt of Fuzzy but was not seriously injured.) We searched extensively but the "top" of the biner was never found. If anyone is in that area and finds about an inch and a half of an orange ultra-light, broken off at the corner of the long spine, please PM me or turn into Miguel's. I'd like to reunite it with it's rightful owner and hopefully have it analyzed.

Thanks

Was the 1st bolt stick-clipped? If it was, my bet would be that it wasn't fully clipped to the 1st bolt. The nose of the biner was probably hung up on the bolt hanger. The climber falls on the 1st bolt putting high impact forces on that biner, and it busts the biner. It's pretty easy to break a carabiner this way (with the nose caught up on the bolt hanger). If the biner was hanging properly, I'm almost certain that it wouldn't have busted. It's extremely unlikely to break a carabiner in the field when loading it properly (along the spine).

PM me or hit me up sometime in Lex if you want more of an explanation.

THB wrote:If the biner was hanging properly, I'm almost certain that it wouldn't have busted..

And by hanging properly, are you also referring to having the gates facing away from your anticipated direction of travel?

I know someone who clipped a bolt and was positive he clipped it all the way, his biner broke, and he took a ground fall. I saw the biner and it looked exactly like a biner that had been nose clipped. I asked him if he always faces the gate away from his direction of travel and I got the same response on the issue that most people on this website will give you...

I have done extensive research on the matter, and one thing I learned is that sometimes you are going to climb on both sides of your last piece of protection, a recommendation from tradgirl.com was to flip the hanger side biner upside down if you aren't sure which side of the draw you will be on when you climb above it. One guy responded and said he knew of routes that were bolted so badly that people were flipping the hanger side biner on every bolt they clip since they would end up climbing on both sides of the bolt.

One time at the gym I climbed to the left of my draw, then had to traverse right of it, I shook, looked down, and noticed the biner was nose hooked. It wasn't because I didn't clip it all the way, but that's just what notched biners do sometimes(I suspect especially wire gates like mine). I shook the rope and it ended up hanging properly(I also read this common sense technique at tradgirl.com).

If you don't want to have to worry about this phenomenon, get yourself some keylock quickdraws (example - $20 a piece Petzl Spirits), I wish I had. I suspect they reduce the effect of this happening by 99%.


I was saving all of that info for the book I was writing, but I went ahead and showed it to you all early since peoples safety is at stake.

Redpoint wrote:

THB wrote:If the biner was hanging properly, I'm almost certain that it wouldn't have busted..

And by hanging properly, are you also referring to having the gates facing away from your anticipated direction of travel?

Yes... but I just figured that was a given...

I don't quite understand how you could clip a draw properly and then by traversing have it end up nose-clipped (I assume nose-clipped to the bottom of the hanger, not the top). Could you explain further or post pictures?

I have unclipped a draw from a hanger before. I clipped a draw to a hanger and I'm positive that it was clipped properly. It was a slab and the route didn't traverse either way, it just went straight up. As I continued up the slab I snagged the draw with my foot and it unclipped by pushing the gate against the top part of the hanger. I didn't realize it was happening and kept climbing to the next bolt. Once I clipped the next bolt, my belayer let out a huge sigh of relief. I looked down to see that there was no draw hanging on the last bolt, and that draw was still clipped to the rope, but it had fallen to the bolt before my last bolt. My belayer saw it all happen, so the story about my foot catching the draw and unclipping from the bolt was all his account of what happened. But it makes sense how a biner can unclip by having the gate pushed up against the top part of the hanger. I guess if it doesn't unclip all the way then it could get nose-clipped to the top of the hanger, but then if you flick your rope or whatever it'll just unclip that biner from the hanger.

What you described is a different phenomenon, but still related to which way the gates are facing. On tradgirl.com they got in a huge discussion about it, and came up with reasons why you should have some of your quickdraws with gates facing in opposite directions, and they also had an example of how there is one possibility of where you are screwed no matter how your quickdraws are set up(I think the solution was to flip the hanger side biner).

Just look at a notched wiregate biner, just because the gate is shut(and never opens) doesn't mean it can't nose hook(the notch is still exposed).

I forgot that all solid gates cover up the notch, silly me, and so I wasn't surprised when I saw that my friends biner that had nose clipped was indeed a wiregate. I don't know if there has been much testing with this phenomenon, but I imagine there has, because some manufacturers really smooth out the area at the top of the notch like this one did:

p.s. I was kidding about the book, and I would take anything I say with a grain of salt.

littleboxes15,

Do you know what kind of biner it was that broke? Example: wiregate.

Also, did the bolt have a large nut on it(like the ones at pistol ridge)? Because if so those types of bolts are more likely to brake a biner or unclip a biner.

Having the gates on each of the draw's biners opposed doesn't matter. What does matter is how the top biner is clipped into the hanger. If the route traverses one way or the other, the gate of the top biner should face away from the direction of the traverse. That way, when the draw is pulled over to the side from the rope drag, the spine of the biner will be facing the rock and the gate will be facing away from the rock. A fall on a biner when the gate is facing toward the rock can result in a snapped biner, as the force is loaded onto the nose of the biner. Even without a fall, movement can cause the biner to unclip itself from the hanger. This is a pretty basic concept and often used to be taught to newer leaders; I think it is also in some of the older 'how to climb' type books. It seems like not many people know this anymore. Look in a climbing mag and you will likely see several photos where the gate of the top biner is hanging dangerously in the hanger.
Glue-in bolts reduce this issue as their is nothing like the sharp edge of a hanger for the gate and/or nose of the biner to get caught against. Just another reason glue-ins are superior.

heacocis wrote:Having the gates on each of the draw's biners opposed doesn't matter.

Well the rope side biner doesn't matter as it relates to the hanger side biner braking, but it matters if you don't want your rope coming unclipped from the rope side biner.

Page 10 of the Petzl Sport catalog has 2 great examples: how to get the hanger side biner to unclip and how to have the rope come unclipped from the rope side biner. Here is that catalog: http://www.petzl.com/catalogue/Petzl-Sp ... 11-USA.pdf

The example where the anchor-end biner comes unclipped is why I mentioned the large nuts. I have tried to simulate this effect(just but putting the biner and my hand and trying to do what's in Petzl's example) on Power-bolts, but the nut is so small I think it would be an unlikely event. I am pretty sure I saw an example in one of my books how the bolt on the hanger can cause an event that can even brake a carabiner, I'll have to look in to it.

The nuts are huge at Pistol Ridge. The bolts look like 1/2 inch bolts(including the threads), I wonder if they are glue in threaded rods, but most likely I think they are a mechanical bolts. Does anybody know what kind of bolts those are? Well I tried the experiment on those bolts and sure enough it worked with ease.

The example of of the biner braking because there was a string on the anchor-end carabiner leads me to believe that sometimes during lead falls with a major swing, that the carabiner might just brake if it comes in to contact with the nut, even if the anchor-end carabiner didn't have a string.

Redpoint wrote:

heacocis wrote:Having the gates on each of the draw's biners opposed doesn't matter.

Well the rope side biner doesn't matter as it relates to the hanger side biner braking, but it matters if you don't want your rope coming unclipped from the rope side biner.

Page 10 of the Petzl Sport catalog has 2 great examples: how to get the hanger side biner to unclip and how to have the rope come unclipped from the rope side biner. Here is that catalog: http://www.petzl.com/catalogue/Petzl-Sp ... 11-USA.pdf

Page 10 of this manual says absolutely nothing about the direction of the bottom carabiner (although it does clearly state to have the top carabiner facing away from the path of the route). The only thing the manual states and the picture shows is not to backclip the carabiner. Backclipping has nothing to do with which way the bottom or top carabiner faces, it has only to do with getting the rope in the carabiner correctly.

Redpoint wrote:Just look at a notched wiregate biner, just because the gate is shut(and never opens) doesn't mean it can't nose hook(the notch is still exposed).

Ah! I see now what you mean. I wasn't thinking about it like that... I was thinking about how this could happen with the gate opening somehow. Thanks for clearing things up!