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What is really causing the overcrowding of specific crags???
-location
-hike length
-route grades
-sport vs Trad
-route quality
-gear quality and anchors setup
-Route quantity
-Quantity of routes your bro's know the name of because what is the point of climbing if others don't know the route
-quality of the cliff base for laying around
-height of climbs
-view
-????

We cannot begin to address this problem without first taking a critical look at why it is happening.


Can route and crag development be a viable option for reducing the overuse of specific crags?
-would the development of a new crag of nothing but easy routes, (even if they are relatively low quality) help reduce the impact on overused existing crags.

Yeah, I was wondering if we could just build an outdoor gym wall in the parking lot full of 5.6 - 5.9 to reduce over exposure on crags...

Sport routes 5.10 & under in a guidebook & close to a paved road are going to get mobbed in the Red no matter what.

But seriously... I think top priorities would be (in no order)

1.) Sport. Bolts and anchors required
2.) Approach (Crags with 30' or more probably see far less traffic)
3.) Grades with 5.8 to 5.10 probably the most sought after. It would be interesting to find out a bell curve distribution of climbing levels at the Red. Never been to Bruise Brothers, but here it is packed.
4.) Quantity of climbs
5.) Shade/Rain cover. ie Roadside, Sunnyside
6.) Quality of climbs/notoriety ie Lode is famous internationally, everyone has heard of Ro...

But what to do about it??? That is the tough question. 2 basic things will reduce impact:
1.) Reduce visits
2.) Reduce impact.

The question is how to do that...

I guess my point is that I am not sure we can reduce the impact on crags by charging parking fees or usage fees, (nor are they feasible) but could we reduce impact by spreading people out.

Not just for specific cliff areas, but to possibly limit expansion of future climbing populations...

Stop making everything so sanitized and safe.
Stop bolting easy routes at every cliff. I think the gorge has enough easy routes. Way more than what there used to be.
Stop grid bolting. Pick the choice lines and leave the rest alone.

Toad wrote:Stop bolting easy routes at every cliff. I think the gorge has enough easy routes. Way more than what there used to be.

I'm curious about this one. I seem to be favoring the opposite approach of expansion for moderates. Part of this thread is from a conversation I had with Andrew earlier, perhaps you have some feedback on my question:

My assumption is that busy crags possibly appear to be busier than they actually are because there is large groups (or several small groups) concentrated on a few routes. How would reduction of those routes reduce people? It seems to me it would just create longer lines (and more impact at the base) for said routes. Or, are we assuming they would just stop coming because of the crowding? I'm not sure that would be the case.

Toad wrote:Not just for specific cliff areas, but to possibly limit expansion of future climbing populations...

Stop bolting easy routes at every cliff. I think the gorge has enough easy routes. Way more than what there used to be.

Easy is anything under 5.13b. Do you agree? Okay, I'm down with it.

I got some "easy" routes for you to send, Ray...