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The Wolfpen Creek and portions of the Gladie Creek drainages meet the requirements for Wilderness. These areas are also adjacent to the existing Clifty Wilderness. In the current Draft DBNF Plan, the addition of these areas to the Clifty Wilderness would NOT be pursued. The only alternative that would include expanding the existing Clifty Wilderness is Alternative B.1. There is obviously little designated Wilderness in the eastern US. For this and other reasons, I think that the expansion of the Clifty Wilderness to include the Wolfpen and Gladie areas should be included in the prefered alternative for the Plan, Alternative C.1.

I value the potential for a Wilderness climbing experience available in RRG. Do you?

Preserve these areas to have some more space for all those 'wilderness' experiences. There are plenty of other areas to develop for climbing, car camping, etc.

I think the Red should be targeted for more recreation due to the great need in the east. Clifty seems to just be a place where the FS does nothing with the land. I do like the concept of Wilderness, but I think the Red is quite underdeveloped as far as meaningful trails and other recreation (climbing included) considering the demand.
Yeah, we have climbing in lots of the Red, but what has the FS done to enhance our experience? Half of a kiosk at Miquel's with info telling us where not to climb and reluctantly giving us permission to put in trails to popular crags. The RRG should be managed more like a National Park rather than a National Forest.
How about putting in a trail outside the Geologic Area? Establish a nice bike trail in the Lower Red? Stop pretending there isn't an established trail with camping in the Upper Red Area past Wall of Denial and go ahead and maintain it? How about getting rid of the stupid bison (that never lived in the Red) and having a visitor center that does more than encourage museum-like gawking as the primary goal of a visitor.

I voted for the third option just to spite the obnoxiousness of it's phrasing. Pave the Earth! (OK, enough channeling HF - I almost put on women's clothing!)

Is there even any sport climbing potential in either valley? I have seen very little that would be worth bolting.

Also, quite a bit of Gladie Creek Valley IS within the Clifty Wilderness.

AND...I really have a problem with these "pretend" wildernesses too. How wild can a place be if you can walk from one end of it to the other in a couple of hours?

OK, sorry for the facetiousness on the grid bolting thing. The point is that one major impact of Wilderness designation on climbing is no fixed anchors. Another would be no trail building (e.g. you couldn't build a trail to a new trad crag). I disagree with the suggestion of "pretend" Wilderness just because you can walk across it in a couple hours. That might might be so along the Sheltowee Trace but not cross-country. Wilderness is valued for the ability to pursue "Primitive" recreational experiences. I have taken several backpacking trips in both the Wolfpen & Gladie drainages. These were cross-country bushwhacking epics that incorporated rappelling and tyrolean traverses. With effort, a high-quality primitive experience is available in the Wolfpen area. Maybee the lack of sport climbing potential in Wolfpen is a reason for climbers to be favorable to it being a Wilderness.

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy thumping around the Gorge and never seeing anyone. I've hiked all over Gladie Creek, both sides, valley and ridge and about four miles up the creek bed scouting whitewater potential. It's as close to what I want as I can get in my own backyard. I just laugh at it being called wilderness. It is pretend. When you're out slogging through the rhodo you can imagine that you're out in some remote forest, but the truth of the matter is that if you put down your pack and started running you could be back to the car before dark.

The FS does not maintain the existing Clifty wilderness very well. On the upper Red east of Clifty creek, locals go 4 wheeling/ motocross riding and trash the area. I have told the FS about it twice, but they have not done anything about it(yet). I think there are enough special designations in the Gorge area allready, they don't need to expand the Clifty wilderness.

Lack of enforcement is not a good reason to say we don't need to expand the Clifty Wilderness. In fact, the ability for motorized access and the ability to traverse the area quickly are good reasons to make the area bigger. Yes, it is hard to say that any Wilderness area in the lower 48 is Wilderness in the true sense of the word. Like something you would find in Alaska. But does this mean we shouldn't havve some relatively untouched pockets? I have done several trips in Otter Creek Wilderness in W.Va. I have also done many trips in the Wind Rivers (Bridger Wilderness). In either case you could get back to the car in a day. Yet these are both outstanding areas.