Risk Assumption

[pigsteak]

With the recent tragedies in the climbing community (our own at the Red and the bolt failure over seas), I have been contemplating this issue alot. Would love some serious discussion from other climbers.

The RRGCC says that all gear (bolts, slings, nuts, cams) on its property is considered abandoned gear, and each user does so at their own risk. Muir Valley takes the other end of the spectrum, and torques every bolt to 35 foot pounds. (Let me clarify, and I say I understand that climbers at Muir Valley must sign waivers accepting responsibility for their own safety.)

Several climbers were discussing the issues over the weekend. All I seemed to come up with were more questions. If the bolt failure that killed the climber was from shoddy workmanship, should there be an actionable lawsuit there? Those climbers KNEW that the bolts were not that good. But then I walk downstream, and wonder if anyone who leaves webbing on a route is also liable if that webbing snaps. You would KNOW that the webbing would fail in the near future. And how about bolters? We know that non stainless bolts will rust and blow out sometime in coming years. So the equippers who put up the first sport routes at the Red going on 15-18 years ago...should they be held accountable today, knowing that the timeline for their original hardware is expiring?

If I bolt a route, and it gets published online or in a book, is the publisher also liable? Shouldn't we be able to sue the climbing mags and guidebook publishers. Bolted routes can't reasonably deemed as "abandoned" when the number of bolts are splashed for everyone to read about.

I've got more questions, but maybe that can open the discussion.
If I can gain some clarity thru the wisdom of our community, then it might help.

[ynp1]

Serious discussion? fuck that! i want to talk about blumkins...

[krampus]

I think that most of your questions are pretty obvious, except for shoddy workmanship, that is basically the gray area that eventually imposes strick regulations on how things are done. Obviously, an experienced bolter should never be held responsible for someones accident. But if a blolter is inexperienced and leaves a death trap then he should be at fault. The difficulty is coming up with a clear definition of when the line is crossed. I would say though, that in order for a lawsuit, it would be on the accuser to display a clear case of negligence. But you can't have people afraid to put up a rout because some jackhole might hurt themselves, and where would it end, could a runout to the third be negligence too.

[Izzy]

I don't think anyone but the climber can be held responsible in any of the examples given here. At some point in our climbing education we've all been (or should have been) informed about the risks of using pre-existing gear, including bolts, anchors and webbing. As far as the shoddy workmanship of inexperienced bolters, the local community needs to have a clear and concise policy concerning who is allowed to do the bolting and the standards that must be met. As far as I know, the RRGCC and team suck keep a fairly close eye on the condition of hardware, other than that I'm not sure there's much else that can be done.
Otherwise, if I leave my "bail biner" behind and someone clips into it ten years later only to have it break then I'd be held liable for their injury. I don't think that's a road we want to go down with all the other issues in the climbing community as a whole.

[rjackson]

Title of the thread states it clearly. We, as climbers, assume the risk every time we tie into a line. Tragedies are rare percentage-wise and of course we never believe it will happen to us.

The climber should be responsible for his own actions (the decision to pursue a life-threatening venture) and all his/her loved ones and family should know this. It's not a dead climber that will file the lawsuit, it's the next of kin who will always want to place blame somewhere.

As far as peace of mind is concerned, you can only take solace in the knowledge that you performed to the best of your ability to make the route as safe as possible and try not to make mistakes. We're all either players or spectators, dog or sheep (and according to Pink Floyd there's the possibility of pig). The only way to deny any involvement would be to get out of the game.

We start the risk of life every morning, and always assume we'll wake up the next day...

[krampus]

As far as the shoddy workmanship of inexperienced bolters, the local community needs to have a clear and concise policy concerning who is allowed to do the bolting and the standards that must be met. As far as I know, the RRGCC and team suck keep a fairly close eye on the condition of hardware, other than that I'm not sure there's much else that can be done.

So what if some entitled euro comes and puts up a new line on the pmrp and uses bolts that are too small for the hole he drilled and someone dies on an FA attemp, or any attempt made before someone who is not technically responsible for checking every new rout at the red (namely the rrgcc and team suck) has a chance to thoroughly inspect it. Not to rip on euros, cus it could be someone from ohio too just as easily.

[pigsteak]

but even shoddy workmanship, should that be reason for blame? didn't those guys bolt that route for themselves, and themselves only? did the orignal bolters actually climb the line with those crappy bolts? (which by the way would probably have held a downward fall, but pulled out of the rock when the climber pulled straight out on them)

if yes, then did anyone have the right to later use those bolts, especially since the equippers noted the terrible softness of the stone....

[Saxman]

I think this is going to get into the courts at some point so it is good we are discussing it. We all know that laws usually end up ruining things for the masses due to the stupidity of the few, ie. hot coffee, step ladders, etc. I think it all boils down to two categories, bolts, and abandoned gear. No one is going to claim that webbing, a stuck cam, a piton, or an old rope that is arbitrarily left on the rock is there to protect later climbers. Most everyone who climbs considers bolts as being there specifically for the protection of all who attempt the route. This distinction, which is made more clear by the efforts of those who replace bolts which can be visually determined to be suspect, is what a court of law would seize upon. I doubt this will ever be a big issue due to the relative small number of people who climb and the even smaller number of people who bolt so it us unlikely that a court, state, or the federal government would step in and mandate some sort of national climbing organization that set standards for all areas and licensed bolters, sort of like AMGA certification. It would be unlawful to bolt without the license and one could lose one's license if one did not follow the code for that area. If climbing keeps growing and the number of routes becomes difficult to police for suspect gear, then this may become an issue. As it stands currently, it will be interesting to see what a court of law would say since I doubt there is much legal precedence on the issue. I agree with Krampus that there is a line that needs to be defined somewhere but the law usually doesn't do that and makes everything black or white.

[anticlmber]

the problem piggie is "EVERYONE" is an expert. from terry, to mr weber and his magic machine, to you and your many crappy routes, to the guy you are trying to tell not to take his brake hand off the rope and his response is anger; you can't tell anyone anything and there is no "governing" body. is there even a "true", (made for climbing) bolt? not some concrete cum rock bolt.

the bolt, webbing, rock, tree, or whatever in the chain you are trusting is YOUR(the climber's) responsibility and it is up to you to evaluate and decide. the cost for choosing wrong(or cheaply) can cost you everything. i have seen my share of shite and try to remove it/replace it with better for MY safety, if it makes someone else's day safe great.

THINK FOR YOURSELF

[krampus]

If you bolt something, then call the guide book guy to give him all the info, it is pretty safe to say that you expect other people to use your abandoned gear. Should you do a shoddy job and get someone killed, would you feel guilty? Probably, because you know they trust you.