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I was curious what other peoples "ethical" standpoint and opinion was on this...
If a trad route is done, for the first time using mostly, any or all pre-placed gear, is that a "first ascent". Yes i understand that the person is still the first climber to make an ascent of the route, but should be given the FA, or should it be the first to do the route in proper style?, i.e. climbing the route and placing all there own gear.
If someone agrees that a pinkpoint is an FA on a gear route. Then isnt that arguably no different than a top-rope "FA" of a sport, or trad route???
I have my opinion on it.... just wanted to know other peoples.

Are you really trying to comparing Toproping to lead climbing in any form? If you aren't smart enough to realize you are comparing apples to oranges then there is nothing I can write here to show you the difference.

I wouldn't claim an FA unless all gear was placed on lead, if I sent the route with pre-placed gear I would allow that I was "working a project". Just my 2 cents

john e aragon wrote:Are you really trying to comparing Toproping to lead climbing in any form? If you aren't smart enough to realize you are comparing apples to oranges then there is nothing I can write here to show you the difference.

Yeah, tell us... when you were climbing No Redemption http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VldO6n9-3-0 were you smart enough to know the difference between toproping and lead climbing?

The top-rope/pinkpoint comparison was just and example of what proper style is possibly considered for an FA. YES THANK YOU! i realize leading with per-placed gear is leading, although that was not the topic in question, i do appreciate your input...

I think it depends on how hard it is to place the piece. A lot of first pieces can be placed then the leader can downclimb (it looks like Beth Rodden did this on Meltdown) to the ground to start. I wouldn't really call that a pinkpoint.

But man, if you're pre-placing a bunch of pieces that would be tough to place on lead and then lowering down for the send without cleaning it's kind of getting into sketchy ground in my opinion. I don't really think a global rule can apply. It kind of depends on the route.

if pre placing gear is not an FA, then neither is sending a sport route with the draws in place.

If we are talking about teh Red here I can think of no precedent fro pre-placed gear?

Pink FA, red, flash, whatever, I'm so tired of the labels. I don't claim anything if on someone elses placed gear. I place my own trad and that's when I'm proud of my accomplishment for the day. Another day I might not do as well, so I try to just take pleasure in a nice cay of climbing.
I do agree that here at the Red, pre placed draws is the accepted norm on really hard sport routes.

You should call it something else besides trad if you claim as send with preplaced. Because it sure isn't traditional anymore. I would suggest just calling it spord or trort or some such.